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Wikimedia Foundation Bulletin September Issue 1

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Here is a quick overview of highlights from the Wikimedia Foundation over the first half of September 2024. Please help Translate.

Upcoming and current events and conversations Talking: 2024 continues


Annual Goals Progress on Infrastructure See also newsletters: Wikimedia Apps · Growth · Research · Web · Wikifunctions & Abstract Wikipedia · Tech News · Language and Internationalization · other newsletters on Mediawiki.org

  • Users of all Wikis will have access to Wikimedia sites as read-only for a few minutes on September 25, starting at 15:00 UTC. This is a planned datacenter switchover for maintenance purposes.
  • The Alternative Text suggested edits feature has now been fully deployed to production on the iOS App for Spanish, Portuguese, Chinese, and French Wikipedias! This feature, part of WE1.2, is designed to enhance how newcomers add alt text to images, aiming to improve accessibility and engagement. For more details, visit the project page and explore the new feature in the app!
  • Editors and volunteer developers interested in data visualization can now test the new software for charts. Its early version is available on beta Commons and beta Wikipedia. This is an important milestone before making charts available on regular wikis. You can read more about this project update and help test the charts.
  • A new draft text of a policy discussing the use of Wikimedia’s APIs has been published on Meta-Wiki. The draft text does not reflect a change in policy around the APIs; instead, it is an attempt to codify existing API rules. Comments, questions, and suggestions are welcome on the proposed update’s talk page until September 13 or until those discussions have concluded.
  • More recent tech updates from Tech News.
  • The latest status updates from Wikifunctions.
  • Help us find WikiProjects or other online collaboration spaces!


Annual Goals Progress on Equity See also a list of all movement events: on Meta


Annual Goals Progress on Safety & Integrity See also blogs: Global Advocacy blog · Global Advocacy Newsletter · Policy blog


Board and Board committee updates See Wikimedia Foundation Board noticeboard · Affiliations Committee Newsletter


Other Movement curated newsletters & news See also: Diff blog · Goings-on · Wikimedia World · Signpost (en) · Kurier (de) · other newsletters:

Subscribe or unsubscribe · Help translate

Previous editions of this bulletin are on Meta. Let askcac@wikimedia.org know if you have any feedback or suggestions for improvement!


MediaWiki message delivery 21:40, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikimedia Foundation Bulletin September Issue 2

[edit]
Here is a quick overview of highlights from the Wikimedia Foundation over the second half of September 2024. Please help Translate.

Upcoming and current events and conversations

Wikimedia at the United Nations General Assembly HQ
Wikimedia event at the United Nations

Talking: 2024 continues

Annual Goals Progress on Infrastructure See also newsletters: Wikimedia Apps · Growth · Research · Web · Wikifunctions & Abstract Wikipedia · Tech News · Language and Internationalization · other newsletters on Mediawiki.org


Annual Goals Progress on Equity See also a list of all movement events: on Meta


Annual Goals Progress on Safety & Integrity See also blogs: Global Advocacy blog · Global Advocacy Newsletter · Policy blog


Foundation statements


Other Movement curated newsletters & news See also: Diff blog · Goings-on · Wikimedia World · Signpost (en) · Kurier (de) · other newsletters:

Subscribe or unsubscribe · Help translate

Previous editions of this bulletin are on Meta. Let askcac@wikimedia.org know if you have any feedback or suggestions for improvement!


MediaWiki message delivery 17:10, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add A Fact malfunctioning

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See Talk:JD Vance#Add A Fact: "Walz vs Vance in VP debate" where Add A Fact has recommended something that not only isn't a fact... It fails verification. Add A Fact doesn't appear to have pulled a fact from the source, Add A Fact appears to have made up a questionable fact. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:25, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Horse Eye's Back, thanks for flagging this. To clarify, the way this tool works requires the user (must be logged in and autoconfirmed on English Wikipedia) to manually select a snippet of text in a source (in this case, a Reuters article) to check against Wikipedia. That text snipped itself is not modified in any way by the tool (it's not even possible for the user to modify it once they've elected to look it up on Wikipedia via this tool). So I suspect what happened here is actually that the source itself (i.e., the Reuters article) was edited by Reuters after this user found the claim and sent it as a suggestion to the talk page via the tool. There appears to be an "updated a day ago" message at the top of the article, indicating that this may be the case. So I think the user of this tool unintentionally caught some possibly-fishy information that Reuters itself was putting out there and then walking back... Maryana Pinchuk (WMF) (talk) 19:40, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the explanation of how the tool works. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:47, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikimedia Foundation Bulletin October Issue 1

[edit]
Here is a quick overview of highlights from the Wikimedia Foundation over the first half of October 2024. Please help Translate.

Upcoming and current events and conversations

WikiArabia 2024
WikiArabia 2024

Talking: 2024 continues


Annual Goals Progress on Infrastructure

See also newsletters: Wikimedia Apps · Growth · Research · Web · Wikifunctions & Abstract Wikipedia · Tech News · Language and Internationalization · other newsletters on Mediawiki.org


Annual Goals Progress on Equity

See also a list of all movement events: on Meta


Annual Goals Progress on Safety & Integrity

See also blogs: Global Advocacy blog · Global Advocacy Newsletter · Policy blog


Board and Board committee updates

See Wikimedia Foundation Board noticeboard · Affiliations Committee Newsletter


Other Movement curated newsletters & news

See also: Diff blog · Goings-on · Wikimedia World · Signpost (en) · Kurier (de) · Actualités du Wiktionnaire (fr) · Regards sur l’actualité de la Wikimedia (fr) · Wikimag (fr) · other newsletters:

Subscribe or unsubscribe · Help translate

Previous editions of this bulletin are on Meta. Let askcac(_AT_)wikimedia.org know if you have any feedback or suggestions for improvement!


MediaWiki message delivery 23:30, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Asian News International vs. Wikimedia Foundation situation

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is becoming quite interesting: 'Prima Facie Contemptuous': Delhi High Court Orders Take Down Of Wikipedia Page On Pending Defamation Suit By ANI

Does the WMF have any input for the Wikipedians who edit in the general area? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:33, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notably, Court Reporters also report that WMF's lawyer has been willing to provide the sought details in a "sealed cover" and that WMF plans to comply with the takedown order. TrangaBellam (talk) 13:18, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WMF's lawyer has been willing to provide the sought details in a "sealed cover". Are you claiming that WMF has disclosed the identities of the ANI editors? That's a pretty WP:EXTRAORDINARY claim. –Novem Linguae (talk) 13:30, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Multiple Court Reporting Portals — including Live Law and Bar&Bench — report that WMF's lawyer was willing to provide details about the "authors" of the ANI article but in a "sealed cover". But the Court didn't accede to such a compromise and wanted it to be filed in public.
The part about "sealed cover" is not reported in mainstream media widely but see Rohini's comments in this Hindustan Times report, etc. TrangaBellam (talk) 13:39, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here's another not-so-established Court-Reporting portal:

Adv Sibal [lawyer appearing for WMF]: I will disclose the name of the author in a sealed cover.

Court: why in a sealed cover?

I doubt that the portal was making this conversation up given how low the bar for invoking contempt jurisdiction appears to be in India. TrangaBellam (talk) 13:48, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Raises a number of questions... Most importantly what is meant by subscriber information? Most of us edit pseudo-anonymously after all and the Foundation doesn't have our names, birth dates, etc and technical info like IP can tell you what device the edits are being made from but not who is making the edits. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:02, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Huh — IP address is considered as PII (though it doesn't disclose device details; are you confusing with user-agent?)? For example, if the address is from an Indian ISP, the Court will compel it to give up the name of the person the IP address was assigned to, during the timeframe of the edits.
Now, I do not know for how long Indian ISPs retain their IP assignment logs. For a comparison, in most European states, it's about 6-12 months. TrangaBellam (talk) 17:19, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah theres a few different bits of technical info, but none actually tell you the author unless I'm missing something. So how does WMF know who the author is? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:24, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All major ISPs in India require their subscribers to produce personal details like Aadhaar at inception. All ISPs are "intermediaries" and are bound by Indian IT Act. So WMF's disclosure of IP addresses is all that the Indian authorities would need to personally identify editors if they are based in India. Read [1] for further info. — hako9 (talk) 17:53, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The question isn't how the court could figure out the name from the technical details and a subsequent investigation... The question is how the WMF has a name. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:57, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They don't. They have IP addresses though. — hako9 (talk) 18:04, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Then how can they "disclose the name of the author" Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They don't need to even if they wanted to. Disclosing IP would be as good as disclosing the name in India. How do you not get this? — hako9 (talk) 18:12, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I get that... But the lawyer said name not IP. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:13, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The lawyer probably misspoke because admins do not have the NDA requirement like checkuser/oversighters. The Indian judge/lawyer also seem to have misspoken when they said 3 admins. I think they meant editors. — hako9 (talk) 18:19, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They could have, but at best it's ambiguous so best to continue to seek clarification from the WMF. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:22, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Names" is an imprecise substitute for "Identifying Information". How do you not get this?
These are fragments from an oral argumentation in a court before ~60 y. judges who, going by the literature on Indian Courts, are usually not very technically adept. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:15, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How do you know that? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:16, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Common sense.
I do not know where you are going ahead with this — conspiracy theory territory where WMF has somehow managed to access our IRL Identities / WMF's lawyer being either incompetent or taking the Court for a ride / .. — but this is my last comment on this topic. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:21, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are blowing this out of proportion, there are a large number of scenarios in which the WMF might be privy to the IRL identity of an editor. I don't think that it hurts to get clarity on the issue. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ANI had asked for details of three "administrators" — do note that their usage of administrator might be lax and not correspond to what we understand as admins; publicly available court records do not mention the names of these three entities — who supposedly inserted and restored defamatory content in the article, from Wikimedia. These are the "authors" referred to, by WMF's lawyer. TrangaBellam (talk) 17:32, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Did we start make admins verify their identity at some point? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:33, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No. But, because of a couple of roles I have filled over the years (OTRS and ARBCOM), I have had to provide WMF with identifying information. The WMF has at least the same access to editor information as do checkusers. If you put your mind to it, you can make it difficult for anyone to identify you, but most editors leave breadcrumbs, and some of us have left a lot. Donald Albury 20:43, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neither OTRS (VRTS) nor ArbCom required ID from me. Nor would I give it. Cabayi (talk) 11:59, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Cabayi pretty sure I had to provide it. That was before your time though. Doug Weller talk 13:40, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Cabayi and Doug Weller, identifying to the WMF did used to require sending them a copy of some ID but that has since changed and you no longer do. I don't remember exactly when it changed but it was after December 2014 when I was elected to the Arbitration Committee, it's possible it coincided with the introduction of the current Wikimedia Foundation Access to Nonpublic Personal Data Policy in November 2018. My recollection is that the copies of the ID were retained only long enough to verify you were who you claimed to be and were then destroyed. Thryduulf (talk) 16:07, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I would have been one of those presenting my ID then. Doug Weller talk 16:49, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Those applying for Grants with the Foundation are required to disclose their identity. – robertsky (talk) 13:01, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@JSutherland (WMF): out of curiosity does the WMF attach an IRL identity which could be provided in court to either my or TrangaBellam's account? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:30, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Based on what I know of WMF and Wikimedia culture, I would not expect WMF to disclose any private information about an individual editor to a foreign court. WMF has a history of sticking to open source values in foreign courts even if it means being blocked for years by that nation's ISPs. I think this would be a great opportunity for someone at WMF to clarify what exactly is being disclosed to the Indian courts about our editors. If nothing private like IP addresses were disclosed, this would be an excellent time to set the record straight. –Novem Linguae (talk) 21:56, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Novem Linguae I agree about the culture of WMF. But given that Wikimedia retains no private data except IP addresses and UAs (correct me if I am wrong on this point), I do not see what else their lawyer could have been willing to provide only under "sealed cover". And I support the call for WMF to clarify on these issues. TrangaBellam (talk) 02:49, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It also retains your email address if you set it, of course. Which is much closer to "identifying information" than anything else. * Pppery * it has begun... 04:19, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, true. Email adresses are stored as long as the user keeps it linked. TrangaBellam (talk) 04:47, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Black Kite was just noting at article talk that WMF did disclose US IPs at least once in 2007 per Video_Professor#Video_Professor_lawsuit. Apparently only Comcast kept the claimant from being able to access personal details. Valereee (talk) 12:17, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Correct me if I am wrong, but twitter/X warns their users before disclosing their IPs on orders of a foreign/local court, when they receive and comply with takedown requests like some mentioned here [2]. If the counsel for WMF has no qualms about throwing wikipedia editors under the bus should push come to shove, shouldn't wmf warn the specific users whose IPs they are willing to disclose? — hako9 (talk) 14:06, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Policy:Privacy_policy#For_Legal_Reasons. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:15, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I imagine that WMF would have to disclose personally identifiable information (PII) in USA lawsuits since WMF is based in USA. My hypothesis is that WMF would not disclose PII to foreign courts. –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:20, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the first case at Litigation involving the Wikimedia Foundation talks about WMF declining a British court order in 2011. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:30, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's been more than 24 hours and the Wikimedia Foundation has not taken down the page. * Pppery * it has begun... 16:22, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Next meeting in court is on monday, I think. Stay tuned. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:28, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Update: ANI asks HC to initate contempt case against Wikipedia, says 36 hr deadline over. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:34, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • So, notwithstanding the fact that WMF's lawyer did broach a "sealed cover" approach, WMF appealed the order — this time, being represented by a different lawyer — petitioning that the Court must find the accusation of defamation to be prima facie true before ordering disclosure. However, the appeal was not granted and additionally, WMF was asked to take down the page(s) on the litigation. TrangaBellam (talk) 06:29, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I was just reading that article, it's quite interesting. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:31, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It is the same lawyer, Akhil Sibal, representing WMF in the main case as well as the appeal. The appeal was a bit pointless. See below. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:50, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • My understanding of the case at this point is that it is at "ground 0", meaning it hasn't taken off. ANI wants to sue somebody for defamation, it doesn't know who. It can't sue WMF because, under the Indian law, WMF is just an "intermediary", equivalent to a television cable company that just trasmits signals. The people that can be sued are the authors of the content, of which there are probably many. Somehow or the other, ANI narrowed down to three editors who, it believes, can be held liable for defamation. So it is weighing in on WMF to reveal their identities. The court, quite reasonably, agrees that it needs to be done. Unless they appear in court and plead, the case doesn't even begin. So, when the WMF lawyer says, I will provide the information in a "sealed cover", I think he doesn't undrestand what is going on (in fact "clueless" would be more accurate). There are only two ways out. Either WMF reveals the identities of the editors so that they can appear in court and plead. Or, WMF waives its status as an "intermediary", and pleads on their behalf. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:05, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • WMF has told us the information is in the US, that they will only release under U.S. law, and told us what those laws are under which a foreign tribunal could get their hands on the information. I hope WMF thinks the court is already pounding sand. fiveby(zero) 16:21, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your analysis is missing the WMF's argument that the court must first make a prima facie determination as to whether the content was defamatory before it orders the WMF to turn over identifying information they have on editors. That determination really can't be made, when the Wikipedia content is (1) true, and (2) simply a summary of public facts already published elsewhere. Levivich (talk) 00:42, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Judge Chawla did make some remarks in the initial stages, which sounded like he made that determination. But to contest that, WMF would have had to plead, which it has refused to do, claiming itself to be an "intermediary". Recall again an "intermediary" is like a cable company that just transmits signals. Twitter has tried to do something like that a year ago, to contest the blocks the government was ordering. It lost. The judge said that it had no locus standi because it was just an "intermediary". The only people that could contest the blocks would be the authors of the content. If I was WMF I would have filed a motion to dismiss, on the grounds that Wikipedia just summarises what the reliable sources say. So the people that can be held to be liable are the authors of those sources, not Wikipedia. But that point has not been brought up in front of the court yet. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 07:53, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Kautilya3 Per B&B, Sibal made the argument:

One of the articles hyperlinked to ANI’s page is of The Caravan. When Wikipedia argued that the publication had not been made party to the case, the Court called it a convenient answer:

An article published by say X magazine which is read by a hundred people, you don’t bother about it…it does not have the gravitas that it deserves a suit of defamation. If it comes to Wikipedia, it is not going to have a viewership of hundred, it may have it in millions and then it becomes a cause of disturbance.

TrangaBellam (talk) 09:45, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I noticed. This is probably part of what transpired in the 20th August hearing, which I was asking about a while ago. It did not get reported in the press at that time. The WMF lawyer gives me the impression of trying to bargain with the judge(s) rather than to assert our rights forcefully on legal grounds. My disappointment continues. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:46, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is part of our fundamental msision is to bring to the public, knowledge that might be known only to a select few. We cannot be faulted for doing this. We are not producing our own knowledge here, only collating it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:51, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, but at least for me, there is a difference between "knowledge that might be known only to a select few" and "pushing fringe sources, limited to a selected few (for good reasons), as authoritative to defame someone or something, thereby promoting the fringe source in the process." This issue is not just limited to ANI, but practically applies to all Indian media news channels that do not bash the incumbent government day and night, using motivated and third-class sources like Mohd Zubair's Alt News. Should self-proclaimed fact-checkers and rival news agencies be used to defame other news agencies? Please do a quick check regarding this if you don't believe me. It's not just about ANI. When someone starts using these sources as authoritative to defame something or someone, it becomes difficult to determine who is at fault—the source, the people pushing those sources, Wikipedia itself, the Wikipedia community that allows this, or the person who feels they are being defamed because they are trying to censor "free speech." The thing is, no discussion will result in anything unless all parties are determined that they are right and the other is wrong. Let's just leave this to the court. My comments on this issue end here. DangalOh (talk) 15:01, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Should self-proclaimed fact-checkers and rival news agencies be used to defame other news agencies? This would likely be a content-related discussion if it arises, and should be held on the article's talk page or at WP:RSN if it warrants an input from the wider community. – robertsky (talk) 15:40, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
using motivated and third-class sources like Mohd Zubair's Alt News Wikipedia has WP:RSN, where the editor community decides collectively whether a source is reliable or not. You can start a discussion on a source there, if you wish to. — hako9 (talk) 15:52, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And the editor community has its own ideas about who is allowed into the club. 1.38.148.33 (talk) 18:52, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We really don't... We will in rare instances kick people out of the community for abuse but as far as a new editor joining there aren't any nescessary qualifications (we don't even technically have a minimum age). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:57, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Somebody else apparently filed a defamation case against The Caravan and lost, in the very same Delhi High Court. That explains why ANI doesn't have the guts to go after them. We are easy pickings, apparently. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 01:24, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They did comply with the interim injunction before appealing. Wmf is definitely not easy pickings. — hako9 (talk) 01:47, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If I was WMF I would have filed a motion to dismiss, on the grounds that Wikipedia just summarises what the reliable sources say There's no motion to dismiss like the US, in India. Cause of action and merit is decided in the pre-admission stage. — hako9 (talk) 15:48, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Quashing in a criminal defamation case is a difficult prospect. This is because – to simplify – under Section 499 of the IPC, a prima facie offence of defamation is made out with the existence of a defamatory imputation, which has been made with the intention or knowledge that it will cause harm. This is, evidently, a very low threshold.

Section 499 also contains a set of exceptions to the rule (such as statements that are true and in the public interest, statements made in good faith about public questions, and so on) – but here’s the rub: these exceptions only kick in at the stage of trial, by which time the legal process has (in all likelihood) dragged on for years. What we essentially have, therefore, is one of those situations where the cost of censorship is low (instituting prima facie credible criminal proceedings), but the cost of speech is high (a tedious, time-consuming, and expensive trial, with the possibility of imprisonment).

Interesting. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:34, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Statement from WMF (to community?):

    Hi everyone,

    I, Kabir Darshan Singh Choudhary, am a Senior Counsel at the Wikimedia Foundation’s Legal Department. The Foundation is in receipt of your message(s) regarding the developments in India around a defamation suit filed by ANI.

    We are currently reviewing the recent order of the Hon’ble Delhi High Court and will take all necessary actions, in accordance with applicable laws, to ensure that the people of India continue to have the right to share and access free and reliable knowledge in an open and safe online environment. The Wikimedia Foundation is committed to safeguarding the rights of Wikimedia community members and preserving uninterrupted access to Wikipedia and other Wikimedia projects in India. As a standard practice, we do not share specific details of ongoing legal cases that are sub-judice.

    Additionally, since this is an active legal case, we recommend caution while sharing, discussing, or speculating on the topic. Please contact ca@wikimedia.org for any trust and safety concerns. Also, please direct any press inquiries you receive to pr@wikimedia.org.

    On behalf of the Wikimedia Foundation

    Kabir Darshan Singh Choudhary

    Senior Counsel
    — https://www.mail-archive.com/wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/msg15179.html

    TrangaBellam (talk) 20:19, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @TrangaBellam, and why share this now? Kinda belated, no?
    1. This was not addressed to the broader English Wikipedia community, but the Indian community, since this was sent to Wikimedia India mailing list.
    2. This was sent on 20 September 2024. https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/DEKVYIS7ZT2SJKK63TDIHRSC72FUSOYD/
    – robertsky (talk) 02:09, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    My apologies; I read it as 20 October 2024. TrangaBellam (talk) 06:49, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WMF action

[edit]
Order from the High Court of Delhi, dated 16 October 2024

And now WMFOffice has taken down the page Asian News International vs. Wikimedia Foundation. Which is one of two occasions since 2020 in which the WMF has accepted a non-DMCA-related content request (the other being some edits to fr:Dorcel) * Pppery * it has begun... 04:10, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do we have to rewrite WP:NOTCENSORED now? Currently it reads "Content will be removed if it is judged to violate Wikipedia's policies (especially those on biographies of living persons and using a neutral point of view) or the law of the United States (where Wikipedia is hosted)." Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:23, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We may as well get rid of NOTCENSORED. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 05:30, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
English Wikipedia policies like WP:NOT describe the way the community conducts itself, and nothing more. WP:NOTCENSORED survived Damon Dash being taken down for two entire years, for example. It can survive this. * Pppery * it has begun... 05:34, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Even then, I think it's something to consider. Is it really not censored? LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 05:38, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
NOTCENSORED could mention OA somehow. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:48, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is an instance NOTCENSORED being ignored via WP:Ignore all rules. And I say that as someone skeptical of that policy in general. I don't think it requires an kind of rewrite. * Pppery * it has begun... 05:53, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hm, I think IAR is about community conduct as well. OA goes beyond that, but can include stuff (like in this case) that can appear like censorship. So I think NOTCENSORED could include something like "For X actions, see WP:OA." Or "or the law of the United States" could have the addition "... and in some cases, other countries." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:16, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
IAR does not apply, as this action does not improve or maintain Wikipedia (unless, arguably, it is a good-faith attempt to preemptively maintain India's access to Wikipedia). Randy Kryn (talk) 07:00, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say it is the opposite of improving Wikipedia, and it's a bad precedent. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 07:12, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The relevant meta-policy is not IAR but WP:CONEXCEPT. NOTCENSORED exists as a matter of editorial consensus, and the WMF is exempt from that. Whether this was a good use of that exemption is something we'll probably only be able to say some time after the dust has settled. For now, histrionic responses (not like yours, GGS, but some others') help nothing and may risk making things harder for the WMF (and thus all of us), given that the court does not seem to recognize much distinction between the WMF and Wikipedia editors. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 07:13, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's really unhelpful at this juncture to characterize matters in this way: this is part of a live legal dispute, and it's pretty clear to me that the WMF's strategy is in service of getting content back up. They're taking what they see to be the least obstructive means—the least censored means possible frankly. I'll put it like this: if all of Wikipedia got censored in the largest country in the world on the pretext of WMF violating this order at this stage—I would hold them partially but meaningfully responsible for that because they fell for easy bait and handed them that pretext. It would be a tremendous fuckup. Remsense ‥ 论 09:20, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see the action on the French Wikipedia is also pretty recent. Is there coverage or discussion on it? Nardog (talk) 04:55, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not aware of any. I stumbled across it when I was checking the WMF's transparency reports to see how rare this kind of office action is. * Pppery * it has begun... 05:10, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Going by Category:Wikipedia Office-protected pages, not that common, at least not on en-WP. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:14, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Found this: it:Wikipedia:Bar/Discussioni/Notification of office action. Nardog (talk) 05:17, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Odd. The Italian/German action from 2021 is not reported at the 2021 transparency report where I would have expected it.
Looks like I failed to read the logs correctly, the transparency reports don't include all such actions, and the French Wikipedia action mentioned at https://wikimediafoundation.org/about/transparency/2024-1/content isn't that at all but the deletion of fr:François Billot de Lochner (especially since those edits are in October and thus would go in the not-yet-released 2024-2 report). * Pppery * it has begun... 05:28, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I guess they were lying about this then? The Wikipedia database is stored on servers in the United States of America, and is maintained in reference to the protections afforded under local and federal law. I thought i knew what those protections were, and must have misread some of the claims made about Wikipedia. fiveby(zero) 05:18, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not happy about this at all. Why should we bend over to censorship? LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 05:29, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At a guess, some version of "our lawyers say we must." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:33, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I guess. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 05:34, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can the WMF office engage with us here and provide additional details?
I would like to know what our options our. For example, we’ve accepted being blocked in various countries before - why isn’t that outcome acceptable here? BilledMammal (talk) 05:50, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Probably because of what the court's requests entail. That, and the large amounts of editors and potential editors in India. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 05:54, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps, but it would be good if the WMF could be clear to the community about what penalties the court threatened, and which of those penalties the WMF believes the court could enforce.
If the only realistically enforceable penalty is blocking, then I think that is a decision that should be devolved to the community and let us decide whether we want to go down the slope of deferring to censorship, or if we wish to continue rejecting it. BilledMammal (talk) 06:03, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In essence, Wikipedia is blocked right now, not only in India but everywhere. fiveby(zero) 06:08, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Huh? Obviously it's not blocked everywhere, as I'm making this edit (from the United States) without applying any kind of anti-circumvention measures. Do you have some evidence to support that hyperbolic claim? * Pppery * it has begun... 06:14, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe the real Wikipedia blocks are the friends we made along the way. (???) LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 06:18, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think they’re saying the because the WMF has removed the page in response to this lawsuit, there is a global partial block on Wikipedia.
It’s a reasonable perspective, in my view, and asks the question of how much are we willing to let Indian courts control the content that our global audience views. BilledMammal (talk) 06:21, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, no one is worried about you Pppery, except in a hope you are well and having a nice evening way. Now i see in the X thread below more talk of releasing info under sealed order. This is baffling unless employee(s) there are truly in danger. How many more of these will there be now that everyone knows it works? fiveby(zero) 06:53, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per [4], this happens from time to time. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:01, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
not the first time the High Court has ordered an online platform..., as far as i am aware this is a first for WP, which they told us they wouldn't, but much more importantly told editors in India they would not. fiveby(zero) 07:21, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
By "this" I meant "WMF giving user-info per court-order." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:29, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, under Terms of Use, Privacy Policy, and applicable 'US law. I do see those to Italy, Germany, and France in the article. Was not aware of those and they may be under US law, Terms of Use, or Privacy Policy. If not should have complained then. It's a shelter for editors at risk. fiveby(zero) 07:41, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd think at least one part of it is the short deadline given (especially given Levivich's quote of the applicable policy). For something easily reversible like hiding the article, it's more practical to temporarily accept the legal orders and then arguing it's invalid after. Alpha3031 (t • c) 09:06, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Applicable policy: m:Legal/Legal Policies § Applicable Law Determination:

If an applicable legal order requires changes to on-wiki content, we will only make direct changes via office action if there is a legal deadline and local process is unavailable or unable to respond in line with the legal requirement in time. In the event that we make a change via office action, we will provide an update to the local community after the change explaining the reason.

Levivich (talk) 05:50, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Which is one of two occasions since 2020 in which the WMF has accepted a non-DMCA-related content request (the other being some edits to fr:Dorcel)
I see several WMFOffice actions just on fr wiki: fr:Spécial:Contributions/WMFOffice, fr:Spécial:Journal/WMFOffice. Der-Wir-Ing (talk) 12:39, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia ‘suspends access’ to ANI defamation case page, following Delhi HC order - The Hindu Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:04, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Questions for the WMF

[edit]

I think it would be beneficial to have a clear list of questions for the WMF to provide answers to. As an initial draft:

The Indian Courts are demanding that the WMF disclose the identity of three or four editors, and according to recent media reports to WMF is willing to do so.
  1. Are these reports accurate?
    If they are accurate:
    1. What types of PII would the WMF be disclosing?
    2. Have the editors involved been informed that the Indian Courts are seeking their PII, and that the WMF is willing to disclose it?
  2. What would be the consequences of not disclosing this PII, including:
    • What sanctions have the Indian courts threatened to impose?
    • How realistic is it that the Indian courts can enforce these sanctions?
The Indian Courts have demanded the WMF take down Asian News International vs. Wikimedia Foundation, which the WMF has now done
  1. What would have been the consequences of not taking down this page, including:
    • What sanctions have the Indian courts threatened to impose?
    • How realistic is it that the Indian courts can enforce these sanctions?
  2. Why did the WMF diverge from its standard policy of refusing to comply with these requests, such as in Turkey and France?

Are there any additional questions that the community wishes to get an answer to, or changes to these questions, before I start badgering the WMF to get answers to them? BilledMammal (talk) 07:09, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would like as a community that we take time to make careful and thoughtful considerations about this, which may involve not badgering the WMF for immediate details on a live court case where they are already handling apparently quite serious contempt of court allegations. CMD (talk) 07:20, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right, this is very news-y and will take time. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:24, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict × 2) Without details we don’t have the information needed to make careful and thoughtful considerations. Once we have the details, we can consider them and decide if, as a community, we endorse or reject the WMF’s stance. In particular, I’m very concerned about the WMF being willing to disclose PII in cases like this, and I would like the community to have the chance to determine a position on that decision prior to the PII being disclosed. BilledMammal (talk) 07:24, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think "Ongoing lawsuit, no comment for now" is likely to be the response if any for now, but we'll see. A known Wikipedian said this [5] regarding the ANI-case in early September. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:22, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The questions about sanctions are not based in reality. No one knows what the outcome of a court case might entail until long after the verdict, and no one has any idea about enforcement apart from a few obvious platitudes about due process. Fortunately, the WMF lawyers are smart enough to not make a public statement about on ongoing case (apart, perhaps, from a few obvious platitudes). The WMF's actions might be a little late, but they look like the first step in protecting identities to me. Johnuniq (talk) 07:34, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The questions about sanctions are not based in reality. No one knows what the outcome of a court case might entail until long after the verdict, and no one has any idea about enforcement apart from a few obvious platitudes about due process.

I think the WMF would at least have an idea of what sanctions would be imposed, as well as which sanctions can be enforced on an entity based in America, but I’m not an expert and could easily be wrong on this.

The WMF's actions might be a little late, but they look like the first step in protecting identities to me.

Given the WMF is willing to disclose those identities, I don’t see how this is the first step in doing so. Given past actions and focuses, I’m wondering if they are more concerned with protecting the WMF’s Indian revenue stream than editors identities or our core mission. BilledMammal (talk) 07:44, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We are unlikely to ever see a public statement from either side regarding this case except for something released by a public relations department with legal vetting. I doubt there is any reliable information about the WMF's intentions but we can see some action: the article and talk page have been deleted and all edits, edit summaries, and user names have been suppressed. Johnuniq (talk) 07:54, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That would be because the court ordered the page taken down - not because the WMF is trying to protect editor identities. BilledMammal (talk) 07:59, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The financial cui bono angle is not convincing. Remsense ‥ 论 09:25, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Given our track record over a great many years, that's an odd thing to wonder. But for the avoidance of doubt: no one at the WMF, no board member, no one at all as far as I know, has brought up the question of "protecting the WMF's Indian revenue stream" - because it isn't in any way a concern that is motivating anyone. I think you already had all the information you needed in order to come to that conclusion, before you started the speculation. Please don't do that, it's not the right way to AGF, ok?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:38, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In recent years, the WMF has behaved problematically in regards to its revenue stream and the use of that revenue, and one of the areas it is attempting to increase revenue from is India. Given this, and the unusual behavior we are seeing here, I think some "wondering" was appropriate at the time - the WMF needs to earn back trust in the area of revenue, it can't expect it. BilledMammal (talk) 13:08, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Literally none of that resonates with anyone who has been aware of the facts, so let me just repeat it - no one on staff or on the board has raised or mentioned or discussed in any way any question about revenue in the context of fighting for editor privacy and freedom of expression. It's literally not true, not even close to true. That's really about all there is to say about it. Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:31, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I feel like one of those questions is more important than the others, and so it might make sense to just focus on that: "is WMF going to divulge any personal information (emails, IPs, etc.) about the three editors accused of defamation, under sealed cover or otherwise?" –Novem Linguae (talk) 08:01, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It raises a good question of whether the WMF is making some sort of determination that some court systems are legitimate and others not... I would note that almost all of the North Korea and China related editing I do could now in theory be undone by defamation orders from the courts in those countries. The very idea that Taiwan isn't part of China is after all offensive to the "Chinese nation" same for the idea that Kim Jong-Un is a human rights abuser. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:38, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is of course true that in any situation, any rational and thoughtful defender of human rights will take into account various factors about the legitimacy of court systems and about the likely result of various courses of action. Again speaking only for myself, I think it should be fairly obvious to anyone who is thinking thoughtfully about how to fight would realize that doing anything in order to comply with courts in, per your example North Korea, would be pointless and hopeless. There would be no question of "we need to respect sub judice so that we can fight the real fight which is about user privacy and freedom of expression" because North Korean courts have zero chance of acting independently. If the WMF told me "we need to take down this page for now, so that we can preserve our ability to fight for the principles we believe in" in North Korea, I'd be totally unpersuaded. Nothing would change the outcome there, as it wouldn't be a real process.
If the WMF said "we need to take this page down because it offends the sensibilities of the 'Indian nation'" I'd be similarly unimpressed, as I'm sure you would be as well. So, again, don't worry - serious people, acting on top level advice from top people, are fighting the fight in a smart way for the principles that we believe in. Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:37, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I suspect that WMF's legal team is advising they definitely not come in here and officially explain the action to us all. This is breaking news, and there's no particular reason Wikipedia itself needs to have this article live right now. No deadlines, we'll finish writing it after the case is settled. Valereee (talk) 09:04, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from Jimbo Wales

[edit]

Hi everyone, I spoke to the team at the WMF yesterday afternoon in a quick meeting of the board. Although I've been around Internet legal issues for a long time, it's important to note that I am not a lawyer and that I am not here speaking for the WMF nor the board as a whole. I'm speaking personally as a Wikipedian. As you might expect, it's pretty limited as to what people are able to say at this point, and unwise to give too many details. However, I can tell you that I went into the call initially very skeptical of the idea of even temporarily taking down this page and I was persuaded very quickly by a single fact that changed my mind: if we did not comply with this order, we would lose the possibility to appeal and the consequences would be dire in terms of achieving our ultimate goals here. For those who are concerned that this is somehow the WMF giving in on the principles that we all hold so dear, don't worry. I heard from the WMF quite strong moral and legal support for doing the right thing here - and that includes going through the process in the right way. Prior to the call, I thought that the consequence would just be a block of Wikipedia by the Indian government. While that's never a good thing, it's always been something we're prepared to accept in order to stand for freedom of expression. We were blocked in Turkey for 3 years or so, and fought all the way to the Supreme Court and won. Nothing has chnaged about our principles. The difference in this case is that the short term legal requirements in order to not wreck the long term chance of victory made this a necessary step. My understanding is that the WMF has consulted with fellow traveler human rights and freedom of expression groups who have supported that we should do everything we can to win this battle for the long run, as opposed to petulantly refusing to do something today. I hope these words are reassuring to those who may have had some concerns!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:13, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(Involved here, as I created the article) Thanks, Jimbo. I support keeping our eyes on the prize. Valereee (talk) 09:20, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:21, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jimbo Wales ban is one thing but the cost of litigation (as claimed by ANI) that the court will impose would be a costly affair DHICKYPEDIA (talk) 16:47, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Indian courts are extremely powerful thing in India. They have the power to scrap the ruling governments, change the constitution and what not. This thing is not related with the government. DHICKYPEDIA (talk) 16:51, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While I agree on a top-line level with the sentiment in the penultimate sentence regarding long term benefit vs short term benefit, my concern would be: is this likely to happen again? We saw with the squabble with the Supreme Court only a few weeks ago regading a victim's name of a crime, now this in the same jurisdiction. Are we setting ourselves up for failure here by showing that we will repeatedly acquiesce to demands—that conflict with our values and mission—from Indian courts that we wouldn't accept from any other jurisdiction outside the US? Daniel (talk) 09:55, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am not a lawyer either, but I'm fairly sure wisdom I've heard from lawyers talking about analogous disputes has some purchase here: one has to play ball to some degree. If the WMF throws up their hands, says the entire court is out of order, and declares they will not participate in this legal farce—that is what will make them look vulnerable, because it's handing every bad faith actor an automatic pretext to get the website they hate to shoot themselves in the foot. See also my comment above. Remsense ‥ 论 10:01, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I hear what you're saying, but the Indian courts are continually looking to expand their power, influence and jurisdiction. They are often seen as more powerful than the legislature and executive within that country; they share some alarmingly similar characteristics in their conduct and processes with the judiciaries of failed states and military juntas. I expect we will see this conduct continue over the coming months and years with more frequency until a line is drawn somewhere in the sand. Daniel (talk) 10:15, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Daniel, I think there is long-term reason for concern, certainly—I think one has to play ball to some degree, but determining when that degree has been exceeded is a big part of what you pay your shiny expensive counsel for. After that, who knows! — Remsense ‥ 论 10:18, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that Jimbo. WMF Legal are in a hard place. Having 48,188,941 "clients" it's impossible for them to give confidential strategy briefings. Cabayi (talk) 10:01, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comforting in what you do not mention, the anonymity of editors in India is not at risk? If it's not a concern that is great, and i am sure you would have mentioned if it were. fiveby(zero) 10:10, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Like, what? If India wants to block us like Turkey did, well, that's why people invented things like Tor, VPNs, etc. If India's threatening something else to WMF there, get out of India. India can't do anything to someone who's not there. (Unless, of course, the WMF is going to hand over data about editors who are there, in which case I hope no one would ever trust them regarding anything again.) Seraphimblade Talk to me 10:42, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, it's better for Wikipedia to cease all operations in India than for it to hand over personal information of editors to the Indian courts. Ratnahastin (talk) 10:54, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sera, WMF pulled the article to keep the ability to appeal open. They aren't trying to make sure we aren't blocked in India. They're trying to make sure whatever decision is made can be appealed up the line. Valereee (talk) 12:03, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I entirely understand that. The answer to any such demand still must be "No". If that means they block us, they block us; that's all they can do if WMF pulls anything they may have there out of India. Unless, of course, they want to involve the community in the discussion about what's going on, and we agree that it's better to have it removed for some time so they can do what they're going to do. But otherwise, if having it up messes with their appeal, well—that sucks, but we should not be telling governments "Just make threats, and we'll remove whatever you don't like!". And now they even know how to make the threat—"Remove it right now or we won't let you appeal!". That cannot happen. Seraphimblade Talk to me 12:11, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think they believe that, like in Turkey, if they appeal it high enough, WMF will win, and that will be not only a win for Wikipedia but for free speech in India in general. And having the community discuss isn't really practical when a court order expired two days ago and the hearing is about to open; we could spend three months discussing this. I think temporary blanking is worth it, myself. We can always open an RfC here to get input. Valereee (talk) 12:14, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's probably what we should do, but I think we'll need some more information first. To start with (and Jimbo Wales, maybe you can answer this, or know who can), how temporary is "temporary"? If we're talking "Leave it down for a week or two until the appeal's filed", then I don't think people would object to that too much. If it's "We'll have an answer in five years, maybe, if we're lucky, and it might still be no"—I think that would be a very different conversation. Legal processes can be very lengthy indeed, so I think we need to have some time frame more specific than "temporary". Seraphimblade Talk to me 12:26, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If it's 'no' once there's no ongoing litigation, then yes, that's a very different conversation. That would be actual censorship. This is just complying with the laws in a country where discussing ongoing court cases is considered an attempt to influence those cases and therefore contempt of court.
But yes, it would be good to clarify what happens when the case is decided in Delhi High Court, but before an appeal is filed with the Supreme Court. Valereee (talk) 12:32, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We shouldn't be complying with those laws. Now, if we need to as a genuinely brief measure to achieve some goal—maybe we say "Okay, this is worth a one-time compromise"; all rules can be ignored after all. But we certainly shouldn't be making a habit of knuckling under to things like that, and I'm afraid we're setting a very, very bad example for other such governments to follow. Seraphimblade Talk to me 12:35, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You or I, as editors, shouldn't be complying. For WMF, as an intermediary trying to thread a legal needle, it's more nuanced. Valereee (talk) 12:44, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll add a plus one to what Valereee is saying here and additionally that in my view the Wikimedia Foundation legal team has earned some trust that it understands the principles that we are all collectively fighting for and that it is acting competently to advance those principles under difficult circumstances that call for hard tradeoffs. Say what you will about other parts of the WMF, but our Legal team is genuinely top-tier and alined on principles, and I am 100% sure that they detest complying with this order. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 13:04, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
+1 - taking it down temporarily is acceptable, but if we're talking years then that becomes a different matter. BilledMammal (talk) 13:13, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The circumstances of which Wikipedia was blocked in Turkey are vastly different from this time round. At the very least, there is still a legal pathway for WMF and the other parties to resolve the matter. If ultimately Wikipedia has being blocked in India totally, we can argue for the Office action to be lifted. For what reason will we want to the article to be not being written by then?
While English Wikipedia has its own rulebook, and one that is evolved largely within USA's set of laws, as an international encyclopedia, we have to be cognizant that the world is made up of different cultures, and accompanying them, different sets of customs, rules, regulations, and laws. What one may think as censorship or self-censorship for not covering an ongoing legal case, in other parts of the world, it may be more prudent to have the case covered only after the case has ended so that one does not prematurely receive an invitation for a coffee/tea session with the authorities.
In the meantime, we can collect the relevant sources for referencing for the article when the Office action is lifted. At the same time, in recognition of the ongoing archive.org issue, please archive the sources on other archival sites such as archive.today or ghostarchive.org. I just realised that some links I had tried to retrieve from archive.org aren't archived in the last two weeks or so. – robertsky (talk) 12:36, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not going to worry about what's prudent when deciding to write an article. If a court orders WMF to take it down, and WMF decides that's in the best interest of long-term goals, fine. But to not write it in the first place because I'm worried a judge might take offense? No. Valereee (talk) 12:42, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am not worried about the judge, but instead fellow editors who are in India. Ever stop and think what adverse effects it may bring to the local community/groups there? – robertsky (talk) 13:05, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I already grabbed a copy from an archive site, and saved it offline as well. If anyone has an issue with getting it from archive sites, I'm happy to email them my copy. Seraphimblade Talk to me 13:09, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
robertsky, that's an argument for not revealing identities, not an argument for not writing an article. Valereee (talk) 13:21, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly what Valereee said. They can't go after them if they don't know who they are, and it's clear they don't, or they wouldn't be doing all this to begin with. Seraphimblade Talk to me 14:24, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"but instead fellow editors who are in India" thats the hostage fallacy. Its the same problem with paying terrorists for hostages... You incentive hostage taking, not disincentive it. Ironically what would endanger editors in India the most is setting up a system where the Indian government can use editors in India as leverage against editors outside of India. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:37, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Jimbo Wales, thank you for that update regarding the page takedown; that is reassuring to hear.
However, of greater concern is the WMF's apparent willingness to share PII with the Indian Courts; in line with Novem Linguae's question above, is WMF going to divulge any personal information (emails, IPs, etc.) about the three editors accused of defamation, under sealed cover or otherwise, and if so what types of PII will be disclosed? BilledMammal (talk) 13:13, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@BilledMammal Possibly true, WMF likely throw poor Indian editors under the bus just like The Wire (India) thrown one of their editors in Meta/Xcheck fiasco. DHICKYPEDIA (talk) 16:59, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do you know that the editors in question are Indian? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:03, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Coule of them are. DHICKYPEDIA (talk) 17:08, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like an entirely reasonable decision, and I'm thankful that Wikipedia is prepared to be blocked in India for the sake of freedom of expression if it ultimately comes to that. Hemiauchenia (talk) 14:29, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Jimbo Wales: An appeal on constitutional matters, although usually accepted, could perhaps take years for a final decision because of the seemingly endless pendency of cases in India's Supreme Court. But once the matter is no longer sub-judice in the Delhi HC, the page on ani vs wmf can be put right back up, afaik (correct me if I am wrong). If the appeal is on civil matter (i.e court finds wmf guilty of defamation), editors here won't be able to add the defamatory content (mouthpiece of BJP) back up until resolution in supreme court. Is this correct? — hako9 (talk) 16:00, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You or someone on legal team of wmf will need to explain this to editors here because, they will keep editing cluelessly about the matter and admins won't know what they are supposed to do. I can reproduce the content on the deleted page right now, to a section in Freedom of expression in India. Will there be a staff action again? — hako9 (talk) 16:10, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't know. My preference, speaking personally, is that people mainly not do that sort of thing just to stir the stew. I don't see the point. WP:POINT. At the same time, I don't think it's necessary to step around on tip-toes nor for anyone to go wild WP:TROUTing anyone who talks about the case anywhere. We are all, or should be, reasonable people acting with kindness towards others. Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:28, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Jimbo Wales: Would WMF comply with a future potential defamation/takedown order from the Indian government or its aggrieved citizens there for say Ayurveda or Narendra Modi/2002 Gujarat riots? — hako9 (talk) 20:00, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Hako9: look at Jimbo's statement again above. The reason to take it down for now was so that we can appeal the case and not lose it by default (i.e. get Wikipedia blocked sitewide in India and probably a bunch of other bad things I won't speculate about). This is not a new permanent precedent where WMF will start taking down content on request from India or any another government. Since the purpose was to enable an appeal in an undecided case, let's keep our cool and not jump to conclusions. Steven Walling • talk 21:25, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's better to be blocked than to trample on the principles. Well very well (talk) 16:53, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm more concerned about the disclosure of the identifying information about editors to the court. That is irreversible, and should not happen, even if it wrecks chances of appeal, and even if it means Wikipedia is blocked in India for a very long time or forever. I mean that seriously, and with real consideration behind it. I'm also not happy in the slightest with the WMF takedown of the page. If that is a takedown with a timescale of days to a week, I can hold my nose, although it is offensive on principle. If this is a more permanent takedown, that can be reasonably foreseen to last months or years, that would not align with the values of the community as I understand them. Tazerdadog (talk) 01:12, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I have a somewhat different view of it. I don't like the idea of the WMF disclosing personal data about editors to anyone, either. But I live in the US and I know the WMF is subject to subpoena in the US: if a US court orders the WMF to turn over my IP address, etc., the WMF is going to comply. They might appeal, they might ask the court to not require compliance until after the appeal, but ultimately, they're going to comply with a US court order, as they must. So would every other US-based website.
    That's the US, but if Wikipedia wants to be a global website, then it's going to have to comply with the laws of multiple countries, not just the US. The EU's privacy laws are different than those in the US; I have rights in the US I don't have in the EU, but if I want to edit here, I have to understand that if a court in an EU country orders the WMF to disclose my IP and stuff, the WMF is going to do it.
    Unless we want Wikipedia to pull out of India -- which I don't think we should, like a sixth of humanity lives there -- the WMF is going to have to comply with India's court orders, just like in the US or EU. Same goes for blacklocking the article: the WMF would comply with a gag order from a US or EU court, it should comply with Indian court orders, too, because a lot of people live there and we should not give up those readers (and editors). So I think complying with Indian court orders does align with the community's values, which is to be a global encyclopedia with a global readership. Levivich (talk) 03:35, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I hope WMF decides to defend the personal data of our editors in this situation. Unmasking our editors because a company doesn't like the edits they made would set an ugly precedent. This talk of disclosing personal data of our editors under a "sealed cover" makes me uncomfortable. –Novem Linguae (talk) 05:55, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Levivich: That's an appallingly bad argument. The concerns of user-privacy, a no less fundamental cornerstone of community values, needs to be balanced with that of potential loss of readership. It would be a global encyclopedia with a global readership but USA-based-authorship if WMF starts going down this slippery slope! Taking your logic to its rational end, you ought to have no problems with WMF disclosing IP addresses of Palestine based editors upon receiving requests from Israeli courts; what if, upon defiance, Wikipedia cannot reach the Israelis?! TrangaBellam (talk) 08:21, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Israel isn't India. Neither is Venezuela, Turkey, Pakistan (all of which have blocked Wikipedia at one point or another). Neither is North Korea, Iran, etc. etc. There are some nations where we shouldn't try to comply with their laws. I don't think India should be one of them. Levivich (talk) 14:49, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I look forward to your list. Some people might say that "Levivich distrusts this country" or "TrangaBellam trusts this country" is an useless way of discussing these issues — esp. when these assessments are not corroborated by any reliable sources — but I am certain that you are already aware of that. TrangaBellam (talk) 15:04, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You jest but coming up with a list of countries where Wikipedia does business and countries where Wikipedia does not do business is exactly what must be done, and what has already been done. We don't have any offices in North Korea AFAIK. We do in the EU. We've already made that choice, and must continually make these choices. The question here is: which group should India be in? I say in the "yes, do business" group. Levivich (talk) 15:07, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That depends whether they try to impose censorship. The US has very robust protections of free speech and press. Many other countries, not so much. If any other country tries to censor our content, they put themself immediately in the "No business" group. People there can still read and edit the encyclopedia (even if they block it; it's not like Tor, VPNs, proxies, etc., are some shocking new technology), we'd just have to remove any offices, equipment, etc., from that country. And if they try to censor any content, we should almost certainly do so. If they demand giving up data on editors, we should 100%, no questions asked, do so. That applies to India, the EU, or anywhere else. If we need to stick to the US to avoid censorship and protect our editors' privacy, that is exactly what we should do. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:53, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Seraphimblade: To be clear, when you say And if they try to censor any content, we should almost certainly do so. If they demand giving up data on editors, we should 100%, no questions asked, do so., you mean "do so" as in "stop doing business", right? jlwoodwa (talk) 21:01, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That is correct. Sorry if I was unclear in my wording. Seraphimblade Talk to me 21:34, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Levivich: Maybe you should revisit your analysis. India is increasingly becoming an authoritarian country and has experienced rapid democratic backsliding. Ratnahastin (talk) 06:00, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    So now the Foundation is going to disclose editor's personal data to EU, India... Why not PRC? It's another "sixth of humanity" just like India, and I am more than certain the WMF would be happy to return to China if it is given a chance. Why not Russia, or Iran, or Türkiye? Each one of these has huge populations and the WMF would not want to be blocked there and "give up those readers" for such a trifle as editors' privacy, right? Deinocheirus (talk) 14:30, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree we should try to keep PRC readership because it is about a fifth of humanity, which is a huge proportion. But China isn't India, there are other considerations, like that China isn't even ostensibly a democracy.
    But what privacy rights are you talking about? You don't have unlimited privacy rights in your IP address. Even in the US, that can be disclosed. And all other websites follow the same laws--why should Wikipedia be immune to laws that apply to every other company or website: Apple, Google, Microsoft... Twitter, Facebook, etc., all of them are going to turn over your IP address if they're ordered to do so by the US, or the EU. Why should Wikipedia editors be exempt? Keep in mind we voluntarily give our IP address, user agent, and other information, to literally every single website we visit, so it's not really private.
    "Wikipedia editors should be absolutely immune from any legal consequence of their editing" is not a value that I hold. My values are: "we are subject to the same laws as any other user on any other website." We don't have any more privacy rights at en.wikipedia.org than we have at www.google.com. And it would be better for Wikipedia to be a global website than a US website. That means subjecting Wikipedia to as many legal jurisdictions as possible. Russia, Iran, and Turkey are dictatorships. I think it's OK not to do business in dictatorships. India is not a dictatorship, even if its democracy is flawed, so is the US. I mean, I don't think Modi is really any worse than Trump, but YMMV. Levivich (talk) 14:56, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    And how do you arrive at the fact that Turkey is more of a dictatorship than Modi's India — vibes? VDem (EDI) ranks India at 110 and Turkey at 127; not much of a margin. Of course, I feel that none of them are dictatorships (as indeed do scholars) but flawed democracies undergoing rapid democratic backsliding.
    This is what I pointed out above. Your argument boils down to nothing but "I feel India is good enough to do business and hence, WMF must comply." TrangaBellam (talk) 15:14, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    "Should" not "must" :-) Levivich (talk) 15:20, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    :-) Ironically, in today's edition of NYT, I came across this but yeah, "Modi isn't really worse than Trump". Anyway, we aren't really convincing each other; so, no point in continuing this. TrangaBellam (talk) 15:26, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    (ec re Levivich) Gråbergs Gråa Sång was it you who linked the article where an editor commented that they were scared? I keep trying to find it again and can't, Bar and Bench? Anyway i would like this editor to not be scared, or a hypothetical editor in such a situation not to be scared. I am in the U.S. and would not be scared in this situation. I thought having the content and PII stored in the U.S. was a practical if not very global way to help. My values conflict with yours but that's ok, for me at least. fiveby(zero) 15:28, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I might have, but if so I don't remember which. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:35, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Fiveby, it's ringing a dim bell that it might have been at my user talk? Valereee (talk) 16:49, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Not spot on, but "However, Delhi High Court ordered the disclosure of Wikipedia users’ identity without even determining whether there was any prima facie defamation. “This appears to deviate from the usual judicial approach of ensuring a proper legal basis before ordering the disclosure of user identities, potentially raising concerns over privacy and freedom of expression,” Choudhary said. ... “Restricting platforms like Wikipedia is an indirect assault on the freedom of speech under the guise of technological regulation,” he said. According to Hasan, “it may stifle open discussion and limit access to information”" - Scroll.in Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:08, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    https://thediplomat.com/2024/09/will-indian-courts-tame-wikipedia/. Quote is about halfway down. –Novem Linguae (talk) 21:43, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Respectfully, a sixth of humanity lives in China, too. There is not a snowball's chance in Hell that we ought be giving them all the user data that they request, nor obeying censorship orders that they hand down.
    If a state is unfree, and is trying to exert editorial control over this project, then the best thing to do is simply to:
    1. Refuse to comply with censorship orders; and
    2. Refuse to hand over user data to countries who would use it to violate our contributors' rights and freedoms.
    There is no other way to maintain project integrity.
    — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 18:34, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think that sacrificing some of our editors in the name of "global encyclopaedia" is wrong. What WMF did has created a chilling effects for non-US editors - that at any given time WMF could gave up their information. The United States is a flawed democracy, but it has way better freedom of speech protection that many other countries. It is not the best, but it is not a bad one either! We have articles on numerous scandals of US administration. We have articles on scandals of powerful people - from presidents to movie stars to religious leaders. We have covered scandals on big companies as well. And none ever did what ANI had done - trying to sue the editors. If this case is brought before a judge in the US it would be thrown out in a heartbeat - not so in many other countries.
    The question remained - why would WMF agreed to share the PII of the editors? What is their motivation? Is "winning" on Indian court worth sending some of our editors to Indian prison? Or the viewership and the revenue of India is too good to be passed? What if the country is not India, but smaller like Belarus. Will we do the same thing? Or how if these things happened in the US? Will Wikipedia surrendered meekly like what happened in India or fought tooth and nail up to the Supreme Court? I previously believe the latter but now I believe WMF would surrender quickly citing "our legal team forced us to do it, the aforementioned editors better get some good lawyer." ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 03:25, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Jimbo, I find it extremely concerning that the lawyers would be willing to disclose identifying information to the court. IANAL, but giving this info to a foreign government doesn't seem like a wise move at all. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 02:44, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not that I don't dislike the idea as well, but from where I'm sitting, the US is foreign government too. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:11, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, yeah, my government is the Canadian one. And considering the Canada–India relations being so bad right now, this is not the time for the WMF to just give my info to India. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 07:56, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that it is probably a smart move to take the article down until we are legally able to put it back up, but I would like to make it clear that under no circumstances can I support giving editors' private information to the government of a country like India, especially considering what has been happening in Canada recently. IANAL, but I believe it would be better to have the site blocked in India than to reveal the private information of our editors without their consent. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:38, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Jimbo, I respectfully understand that the hope is that the WMF will appeal and ultimately win. And I very much hope that the WMF does win here.
But what if the WMF loses this case? Is the WMF then going to restore the page (or permit the page to be restored), and flagrantly be in contempt of the Indian courts? Or are we going to allow this global project's content to be subject to a de facto veto by the laws and courts of India? And, if we accept that the Indian government has that de facto veto, doesn't that place this whole project at a real risk of censorship down the line? — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 18:26, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not a lawyer, but as I understood it, the (perhaps) main reason the judges got pissed off was that the case is "Sub judice", but that can probably be the case for years to come. I also read today that there are currently two ongoing cases, ANI-defamation and WMF appealing order to release user-info. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:42, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. CS(OS) 524 / 2024 and FAO(OS) 146 / 2024 — hako9 (talk) 20:13, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, but if the WMF loses the case, the case is over, so no longer under subjudice and no longer in contempt of court, so there'd be no need to suppress the article, even from the court's point of view? Valereee (talk) 20:38, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makes sense. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:40, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
However in that case, presumably WMF would be ordered to censor the ANI article, essentially the same dilemma. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 11:38, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is not the same dilemma, as the reasons the action is being requested would be different. This will weight the decision differently. CMD (talk) 12:52, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was being unclear. I meant the dilemma Red-tailed hawk described, not the one we're facing right now. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 12:54, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We would run into the same dilemma, inasmuch as the WMF would have to make a decision as to whether or not they would comply with India's court order that requires that a particular page's content be edited in some way or removed in some other way. I understand that this decision by WMF legal is tactical in nature so as to try to preserve the opportunity to win on the broader point at the end of the day. But there are big questions here, and I hope the board really does take to heart that we are talking about freedom when we talk about a free encyclopedia, not merely taking about a gratis one. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 02:11, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's only the same dilemma if you consider all court orders to be identical, which I'm sure WMF does not and I hope we would not as well. CMD (talk) 06:30, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Request journalistic help with The Signpost

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The Signpost is Wikipedia editors' own newsletter. Like everything else with Wikipedia, anyone can edit it, and it invites volunteer contributors. I am writing to request assistance from anyone who would like to draft the story about this legal issue. I have some notes started at Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/News and notes. Here, a brief objective summary of the events is needed. If anyone would like to contribute other journalism, such as a personal opinion piece on the situation, then please express your interest at Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Newsroom. Thanks! Bluerasberry (talk) 15:23, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This feels like a bad idea. If covering the court case is what got us in trouble the first time, I doubt the court would look kindly on us doing it again, even if in a different format. Elli (talk | contribs) 16:16, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since when has Signpost cared about what's right or best for the project. SerialNumber54129 16:19, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed Doug Weller talk 09:30, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure if you are talking about an actual incident or just vaguely expressing disdain (?) but if there's a particular thing you have in mind I am always open to criticism. jp×g🗯️ 05:25, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Good comment. Don't you find it disturbing? fiveby(zero) 16:36, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I am disturbed when free speech is under legal threat. That does not mean we should take a poor legal strategy, such as ignoring court orders while a case is ongoing. Elli (talk | contribs) 16:39, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are you a WMF employee? Because if not the "us" there isn't under court order and has no legal strategy. We are not the WMF. Also note that you are currently ignoring such a court order if it does apply, you are literally discussing the court order right now on wikipedia. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:42, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, I'm not a WMF employee, but I do view us as in this fight together given that they're fighting for our rights here. Doing things on Wikipedia that are likely to interfere with their strategy and piss off the court is, in my view, a bad idea if you want the WMF to win this case. Elli (talk | contribs) 16:44, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So why are you commenting in a discussion which will almost certainly piss off the court? If you're taking the court seriously you aren't supposed to be having this conversation... You aren't supposed to even mention the case on wiki. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:47, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This doesn't refute anything I've said. An internal discussion vs something intentionally presented as a news report is very different and it's not unrealistic to think that the court would see it as such. And yes, I do think it would probably be better if we keep the discussion about the case itself to a minimum here, but since the discussion is already happening, it's not like my comments in particular are going to be the tipping point for the court being unhappy with us. Not interested in arguing about this with you. Elli (talk | contribs) 16:52, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We have a long tradition of covering controversies which involve ourselves confidently, even handedly, and promplty, it is one of our best features and something that even our most ardent opponents will mention as a positive, its a peculiar badge of honor that anti-wikipedia people will refer to Criticism of Wikipedia or List of Wikipedia controversies for evidence of why Wikipedia sucks. I don't see a compelling reason to abandon that tradition, if you want to engage with me in that sense I would be very open to it. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:03, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The principle shouldn't be abandoned; just put on pause until we get a final result in this court case. Unlike previous cases, the judge here doesn't seem to be able or willing to distinguish between actions of Wikipedia editors and of the Foundation (that's how this whole thing became a problem in the first place). Given that, us editors doing stuff that the judge wouldn't like has the potential to cause problems for the Foundation's legal strategy.
After the court case is resolved, whatever the result, I expect that we will fully cover this, and that we will restore the page on this case (even if we lose the case and get blocked in India for it). However, doing so now would make it far more difficult for us to win the case. That's why we shouldn't. Elli (talk | contribs) 17:10, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If the problem is that we aren't seen as separate wouldn't doing the same thing be the problematic one by that logic? And is an argument to do or not do something in order to seek advantage in a court case the foundation is involved in an WP:IAR argument or is there another policy or guideline basis for it? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:14, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it's an IAR thing. In my opinion we should try to make the Foundation's job easier here, because doing so will benefit us in the long-run. (Of course, it wouldn't be IAR if they force us to shut this discussion down or removing coverage of the case elsewhere on the site... but I'd rather avoid things even getting to that point.) Elli (talk | contribs) 17:18, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Would it be unfair to say that you think we should temporarily put aside NPOV in order to promote the Foundation for our own long term benefit? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:20, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that is unfair to say. This isn't setting aside NPOV at all and certainly not promoting the Foundation. Elli (talk | contribs) 17:21, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Promoting the Foundation's interests then? What is making their job easier if not promoting them or their interests? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:23, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you honestly cannot understand the difference between "violating NPOV to promote the Foundation" and "not posting things that will harm their chances in ongoing litigation" then I do not think there is any point to discussing this further. Elli (talk | contribs) 17:27, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't fabricate quotes, thats just not what I said... I said temporarily put aside in the context of IAR, which unless I misunderstand is the only policy or guideline on which your argument is based. Doing something to help a group's chances in a court case is a WP:NOT problem, that doesn't change when the party in question is the Wikimedia Foundation and not the The Coca-Cola Company. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:38, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Signpost isn't part of the encyclopedia. Content policies don't apply to it. Not that any content policy requires us to write about a topic anyways. This is a very silly thread. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 17:55, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Throwing a third layer of complexity in the picture? I really can see why this is so maddening for judges to figure out... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:59, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Good luck with that, Maddy from Celeste :D SerialNumber54129 12:12, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just as editors shouldn't worry about performance, I disagree with the notion we should adjust our behaviours to assist the WMF's active legal affairs, especially our own syntheses of what would help (with a clear distinction here in regards to settled policies, e.g. fair use). The Foundation has a legal team and contractors who are professionally poised to handle these situations. Once a hammer comes down, if it does at all, then those directions should be followed. DatGuyTalkContribs 17:51, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We are all fine here, our speech isn't under legal threat. Bluerasberry can write elsewhere and we'll all be able to read about things elsewhere. It is annoying and shocking to see happen is all. I'd like to hear from those whose speech is under threat in the Signpost article. I thought that Wikipedia gave them the best protection they could to do so. From what i'm reading and how it appears that is not so strong a protection as I thought (but most importantly what they thought). Based on Jimbo's statement above and taking it as more reliable, it appears that this is not so great a concern in this case. fiveby(zero) 17:51, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Imagine the elsewhere is diffblog and it somehow gotten past the review stage. 🤣 – robertsky (talk) 03:17, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We're going it now in a different format. This current discussion will offend the court if that will. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:41, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's a big difference between a general discussion about how the community should react to the issue between the WMF and the Indian courts, and publishing an article in something which identifies as a newspaper, covering apparently the same sorts of things as the recently redacted article covered. I know that it's ultimately the WMF's decision what flies and what doesn't fly, and no doubt they'll take the Signpost article down themselves if they deem it appropriate to do so... but personally I do agree with Elli that it would be prudent and WP:COMMONSENSE not to inflame this situation any further by publishing a Signpost article on it now, given the Office Action decision to redact the article itself. Once it all blows over, the Signpost can cover it at will.  — Amakuru (talk) 18:30, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If the Signpost used its own web server instead of piggybacking a free ride on WMF's servers, this wouldn't be an issue. And they'd be closer to an actual independent newspaper instead of being this website's newsletter. I agree they shouldn't pour fuel on the fire by posting about the case on the WMF's servers. Levivich (talk) 18:36, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, you'd just have to buy a domain, set up a webserver, then write an application for passing through URLs to retrieve, format and display Signpost articles, and also make it capable of overriding this default behavior for specified titles to fetch the content from its own database rather than from enwiki_p... jp×g🗯️ 11:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
lol it's not the 90s anymore, you don't need to set up a web server to have a website, nor do you need a domain (which btw cost less than $1/yr now). Signpost could post its articles on wordpress or substack for free. Takes like five minutes to set up. They have lots of nice templates that do the formatting for you. If boomers can do it then so can anyone. You could even have your own message boards, event calendar, email newsletter. Levivich (talk) 11:51, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know any TLD that costs less than $1 a year, unless you mean some kind of introductory/bundle offer. At any rate, if I were going to sit down and do this I'd want it to be something decent and presentable like, say, signpost.news. jp×g🗯️ 12:40, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
which btw cost less than $1/yr now. My domain name registrar charges USD $17.29/yr for .coms, $15.95/yr for .nets, $9.49/yr for .orgs. I feel those are more typical prices. –Novem Linguae (talk) 21:48, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Based on the one example at hand, the process seemed to be: ANI lawyers notice whatever > They tell judges > Judges get annoyed > Judges order WMF. It won't necessarily become a habit, and the previous article was in mainspace + linked on the ANI WP-article, and so more visible to the lawyers involved.
It will be hard to convince all Wikipedians not to discuss this possibly first-time-ever issue on-WP, but prudent people can always join the discussion on Wikipediocracy instead. I don't think writing in The Signpost is more not prudent than this thread. We as a community don't handle gag-orders well. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:01, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Some of us would rather have the discussion via messages left in gas station bathrooms than on Wikipediocracy. That aside, I think we handle gag orders well, in that we refuse to shut up, which is a good way of handling them. We just don't handle them the way those who would hold the gags wish we would. Seraphimblade Talk to me 19:07, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Thieves respect property. They merely wish the property to become their property that they may more perfectly respect it." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:15, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely an appropriate quote, but not in the way you think. If someone's trying to keep me from speaking either my opinion, or any true fact, and I have not voluntarily agreed to that situation (e.g., an NDA in exchange for access to sensitive data in employment), they are trying to steal my right to speak. And I won't take too kindly to that. Seraphimblade Talk to me 19:24, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My thinking was that the cadence of your comment reminded me of that quote, I'm not calling anyone in or mentioned in this discussion a thief. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:28, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Wikipedia is in the real world may be more germane than WP:COMMONSENSE. Nardog (talk) 21:15, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I guess the editor-in-chief exists to post in situations like this.
Well: I don't think it's possible for a thing to fit fit more clearly in the Signpost than this (what could possibly matter more? the crossword?) At the same time, I would personally prefer to do so in a way that avoids hosing the entire project and everybody on it for no clear benefit. The obvious journalistic response to open direct censorship is somewhere between "NUTS!" and "Aux armes citoyens", which is altogether good and proper.
I would consider directly causing the death of the website we're hosted on something of an anathema to our ability to exercise journalistic integrity; I would consider e.g. having entire articles summarily oversighted with no appeal something of a pointless exercise in boneheadedness and organizational dysfunction for its own sake. Anything which results in these things happening, then, is no good. So what actions result in which outcomes? Well, I don't know. I don't think anybody really has a complete picture of what is going on, hence this vacuous if-by-whiskey post. All I can say for sure is that some emails are going to be sent. jp×g🗯️ 18:44, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It might sound radical. But hear me out. Since signpost is a newspaper, you report 2 facts. 1) The article xyz was taken down. 2) Jimjams quote verbatim. That's it. No bylines. No explanation/analysis (not that most of the editors here are competent in legal analysis anyways). — hako9 (talk) 18:46, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The court might consider it a house organ. They don't really understand the separation. Valereee (talk) 20:09, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

fr.wiki OAs

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In 2024, WMF also took two content-related OAs for two articles at fr.wiki. It is perhaps pertinent to note that in the period from 01-01-2015 to today — which is about a decade —, there have probably been only five OFFICE ACTIONs concerning content per this discussion: the article on the ANI litigation (2024), Lois Lee (2015), two fr.wiki articles (2024), and a Zh.wiki article (2018).

In any case, WMF issued a long statement to the fr.wiki community. I found it interesting because it seemed like an unprecedentedly detailed intervention (not attributing any negative motives, though; it's perhaps helpful) by WMF into content, going to the extent of suggesting how the community ought to write articles, deal with COI requests, etc. They also note that French courts are becoming increasingly sympathetic to the subjects of Wikipedia articles and probably hints that there could be more litigations (and similar OAs?) in the future. TrangaBellam (talk) 19:59, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As is often the case, we have used automatic translation tools here in order to communicate with you in France – which explains the lack of inclusive writing/turns of phrase, for which we apologize. Bet the French loved that lol... Valereee (talk) 20:11, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I bet the non-French members of the French-speaking Wikipedia community loved it even more... Like starting of a letter to the ewiki community with "we have used automatic translation tools here in order to communicate with you in America" (although to be fair they do use the much more accurate "French-speaking Wikipedia community" further in) Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:18, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Especially odd since the WMF does have several French-speaking employees, and has had French-speaking employees over the entire time period. * Pppery * it has begun... 21:17, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The francophones don't seem to have forgotten the slight against their honor from the WMF... [7]. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:39, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, wow. Valereee (talk) 01:04, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To be fair the court only seems to care about enwiki, there are pages for ANI on eleven other language wikis (including other languages widely spoken in India) which say more or less the same thing enwiki does but they don't seem to be at issue for the court... Just the stuff on enwiki. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:20, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pinging Blessentmoncoeur. Valereee (talk) 01:33, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's worth pointing out that creating that page is Blessentmoncoeur's only edit across the entire wiki farm. Probably some LTA making a point, not a legitimate expression of the views of the French Wikipedia community. * Pppery * it has begun... 03:24, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps not an LTA but someone who thought it prudent to use an alt account. Can someone give me a correct translation of the username, I don't think "bless my heart" is quite right? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:33, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hurt my heart. – robertsky (talk) 08:07, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That makes a kind of sense, thanks. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:09, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is a line from Chanson d'automne, by Paul Verlaine. Whoever chose that name probably intended to recall its use as a secret message for the French Resistance during World War II. – Swa cwæð Ælfgar (talk) 12:25, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities might be interesting for you, knowledgeable people are always welcome. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:19, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My God. You'd think it would make sense NOT to do this. I know I'm all about the Streisand effect, but this isn't the time just yet. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 02:56, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. On the one hand, I think this is on the "just to stir the stew" side on Jimbo's comment here. On the other hand, it made me smile. While the en-WP article was live, I certainly hoped it would be translated into Hindi and other languages. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:27, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it's gone now. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:51, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Deleted citing enwiki OA and sock puppetry. – robertsky (talk) 08:10, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Faux-nez, a false nose! I hadn't heard that before. Now I'm going to need to know the idiom in every language. Valereee (talk) 09:30, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
sv-WP uses Marionette. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:51, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
09:31, 22 October 2024 JohnNewton8 talk contribs deleted page Asian News International vs. Wikimedia Foundation (Page supprimée de en-WP par WMF à la suite d'une procédure judiciaire + notoriété non démontrée (sources sur un mois seulement) + création par un WP:FN +) (thank) Is this an office action or a normal CSD? Neither I nor the machine translator parlez-vous well enough to tell. jp×g🗯️ 11:20, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"notoriété non démontrée (sources sur un mois seulement)" indicates it was deleted on notability grounds as it didn't contain sources older than one month. I don't see such a clause in fr:WP:N, but that might be how they operate there. Nardog (talk) 14:55, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is mentioned at fr:Wikipédia:Notoriété#La notoriété doit être pérenne.

La notoriété, telle que définie ici, ne peut pas résulter d'une notoriété ponctuelle ou d'un engouement temporaire. C'est pourquoi il est demandé en principe que le sujet puisse s'appuyer au minimum sur deux sources secondaires considérées comme fiables qui lui aient consacré un article ou un chapitre, espacées d'au moins deux ans.

Basically, a subject needs to have reliable secondary sources that are space by at least two years to be considered notable. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 21:03, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We need this on enwiki, if only to get rid of the many articles about current events that don't warrant a page. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 03:06, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We sort of do have it, "Brief bursts of news coverage may not sufficiently demonstrate notability.", but it's just one of the factors editors can look at in an afd. It's not like fr-WP doesn't have Tentative d'assassinat de Donald Trump en juillet 2024. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:07, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note how they don't have pages on the perpetrator. That's a good thing. But that's besides the point for this noticeboard. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 06:46, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not "pages" but Auteur_de_l'attentat has about 500 words. There may be a case for merging Thomas Matthew Crooks at some point, but the technically 4 afd:s so far didn't do it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:57, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Page supprimée de en-WP par WMF à la suite d'une procédure judiciaire: Page deleted from English Wikipedia by WMF following a legal procedure
notoriété non démontrée (sources sur un mois seulement): Notability isn't demonstrated across time (sources only across one month)
création par un WP:FN: Created by a sockpuppet ("faux-nez")
Appears to be a regular deletion, but informed by the office action on English Wikipedia. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 21:08, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Now this is a good subject for a The Signpost article, @JPxG. Office actions in history or something like that. I read some of a discussion linked in the long statemant [8], and the WMF lawyer there seems to be saying that it generally helps the legal department when the encyclopedic content is good quality, so they don't have to defend crap in court. I'll try to keep that in mind if I do more edits in the general area. And I think the deleted article was pretty ok from the WP-perspective. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:54, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Important nitpick: I confused myself. See below. But TL;DR: There's a sixth. As discussed above, one of the two OAs on frwiki itwiki and dewiki, albeit much more minimally. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 23:11, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That happened in 2021. Weird to say the 2024 OA "affected" them. Nardog (talk) 23:27, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The specific database query used to start this thread looks only for logged actions (in the sense the community defines that term). It missed the 2021 action as a result of that, since the only logged actions it involved are oversights. I skimmed through WMFOffice's global contributions, and didn't find anything else of note. * Pppery * it has begun... 23:43, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I mixed up my frwiki things. The 2021 itwiki & dewiki actions were about a French individual, but had already been handled by the community at fr:Dorcel (and, it seems, also at Special:PageHistory/Marc Dorcel). But then more recently the same statement was reïntroduced on frwiki and led to an OA there, unrelated to the two linked by TrangaBellam. So that makes six total, if we count the it/de/fr Dorcel actions as one. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 00:28, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But it's correct that Asian News International vs. Wikimedia Foundation is the only such takedown of an article in en-WP history? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:30, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Likely unless WMF has supressed the relevant logs too. TrangaBellam (talk) 08:51, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not correct. The WMF took down Damon Dash and DD172 temporarily and Andrew Stewart Jamieson permanently in 2011, for example. I think this is the first takedown since those, though I haven't looked exhaustively. Office actions were much more common in the early days.
Those do show up in that query, by the way. And to answer the implied comment in the query you linked to: "but did staff have WMF accounts, then" - the current policy of official actions being required to be staff account dates only back to 2014 (although most staff followed it anyway), and the WMF didn't even exist in 2002. * Pppery * it has begun... 05:36, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A good reminder that Wikipedia is pretty old, and many things happened BEFORE the tools that now document similar things :) —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 09:50, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Calling Wikipedia 'pretty old' is making me feel pretty old. :D Valereee (talk) 19:04, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps, "maturing", instead. I don't think WP is anywhere near as creaky as I am. Donald Albury 20:17, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, it's of course not as old as any of us who were here from the early days. I know I felt it when a high school student asked me "What was it like to actually see 9/11 happening?", and realize they wouldn't have. Seraphimblade Talk to me 21:51, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It has always baffled me that there's not a list of all onwiki office actions somewhere. jp×g🗯️ 12:53, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There used to be. WP:OA now links to Special:Contributions/WMFOffice, but that's not quite right, as there's also OAs in Special:Log/WMFOffice that didn't involve any edits [9] [10] and those in m:Special:Log/WMFOffice changing enwiki userrights [11] [12] [13] [14]. If an enwiki functionary is struck from the NDA access list, that shows up in a fourth special page, m:Special:Contribs/WMFOffice. So it does seem like a centralized, wikitext log would be helpful and wouldn't be that much additional overhead for T&S. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 13:34, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
do we want to reactivate the log then? – robertsky (talk) 06:46, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Might be good to ask someone from T&S or Comms (@JSutherland (WMF), @RAdimer-WMF?) whether it's something the WMF would like to take responsibility for. If not, I don't see any reason it couldn't be done by the community. Most of it could even be automated: Have a bot list any local edit/action from WMFOffice, plus any metawiki edit/action affecting an account or IP with >0 edits/actions here. Then allow humans to collate related entries so it's not like 10 entries for a single rename. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 17:46, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrary break

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Let's have some more press, shall we? Wikipedia’s credibility at stake as its editors target more Indian media outlets Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:06, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How would they know that it's "Wikipedia editors" who did that? Article content is freely licensed, so those news outlets could just as easily have decided to do that on their own. I know I certainly don't have any control over what any Indian news outlet chooses to put on their website. Seraphimblade Talk to me 21:46, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think Wikipedia editors replicated edits across more Indian media outlets refers to the articles on those outlets. jlwoodwa (talk) 04:18, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

""Anybody can edit a page on Wikipedia?" What kind of page is this if it is open to anybody (for editing)?" the Court asked with surprise." I guess that's progress. Also, per that article, it seems that ANI has asked the court for a take-down of the ANI WP-article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:50, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They're right that it's dangerous though! That's why we have numerous policies and tools to help define and manage the risks. Grappling from first principles with Wikipedia's system. CMD (talk) 08:14, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"ANI also submitted that page is continuously changing and further defamatory edits have been made." "page" here means Asian News International, I think. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:25, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Mehta submitted ANI has a very wrong understanding of Wikipedia's architecture. He added that a note would be submitted on how Wikipedia functions. Looks like this is a step in an encouraging direction in which the court is learning how Wikipedia works. – robertsky (talk) 08:57, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We have a new lawyer it seems. And he didn't seem to know that the ANI page is locked from "anybody can edit". Indian right wingers often complain about precisely this locking because they can't change the pages to their taste. In any case, I am glad that the court is finally trying to understand the architecture of Wikipedia. But it is important that our lawyer understand it first. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:42, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Many people/groups complain about that. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:23, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tangential discussion
Right-wingers (who are ideologically diverse depending on the country and community) often complaint more—mainly because they are systematically silenced or blocked to a greater extent. Most right-leaning sources are either depreciated or, at the very least, extensively defamed (a trend you may have also noticed). In contrast, left-wingers (who share a relatively consistent ideology globally) and their situational allies typically receive a free pass on Wikipedia, provided they aren’t overtly disrupting the platform. Many senior editors (with support from admins) feel no hesitation in doubling or even tripling down on defaming right-leaning pages and sources when questioned about their intentions, fully aware that they contribute to Wikipedia’s declining reliability.
The prevailing left-wing view often assumes that "truth is left-wing," leading to the belief that they are always right. When one sees themselves as the "fact," there's little motivation to consider opposing perspectives. This imbalance has made Wikipedia extremely one-sided and unreliable for political, historical, and certain religious pages, especially those that aren’t assets to the left.
However, as I always say, Wikipedia remains excellent for topics like science, philosophy, movies, and other non-political subjects. Never forget this:[16][17] DangalOh (talk) 12:54, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are using a disgruntled former Wikimedia official as a source. That's called a self-defeating argument. Ratnahastin (talk) 13:35, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Source? I don’t need a source to assert this; I was just using it as an example. Besides, the person I was replying to can think for themselves, I suppose. DangalOh (talk) 13:39, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're making some pretty serious accusations there without evidence, @DangalOh. That's not okay. Valereee (talk) 13:49, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@DangalOh I'm not particularly invested in the right versus left propaganda debate, but I’ve noticed that any media outlet that even slightly supports a government tends to receive more citations labeling it as biased. Conversely, there are often few to no references asserting that it is not biased, making it challenging to counter those claims effectively. This imbalance is a consistent issue: when right-wing parties are in power, left-leaning voices tend to be more active in criticizing and highlighting their errors, and vice versa. This back-and-forth dynamic creates a cycle where each side focuses on pointing out the other's flaws, distorting the overall representation of viewpoints. I.Mahesh (talk) 13:58, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would disagree with the idea that when the left wing is in power, Wikipedia becomes full of right-wing perspectives. There are more left-wing governments in power in G7 countries, yet Wikipedia still bashes the right wing of those countries day and night. Additionally, it seems that the anti-India bias on Wikipedia is free of any foreign political leaning, which has become very intense recently—perhaps due to the recent developments in India-Canada relations. All I can say is that as long as the USA and Canada continue to be left-wing, there is little hope for good relations with India. Even left-wing Indian governments won't be able to salvage this damage. And don’t forget, whether left-wing or right-wing, Wikipedia will almost always prioritize America first, considering it has to adhere to American laws and rules. DangalOh (talk) 14:10, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So, if the Indian government is considered right-leaning, it follows that many major Indian media outlets are either right-leaning or neutral. This is evident from their Wikipedia pages, which often face vandalism and scrutiny. The references used on these pages typically come from a limited number of sources, which tend to be either left-leaning (citation needed) or neutral or out of country whatsoever.
The issue seems to stem from the fact that when one media outlet accuses another of being right-wing, the right-leaning outlets rarely support their counterparts or other news channels. This lack of mutual support makes it difficult to find sources that can substantiate claims of bias in a balanced way. As a result, we struggle to find reliable references to counter the prevailing narratives. This is purely my observation and may not be factual. I.Mahesh (talk) 14:36, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@DangalOh That's wrong about the G7 countries. Italy is right wing, France neither left wing nor right wing, the UK Labour party is not actually left wing at least as it stand now. etc. Check them. Doug Weller talk 14:55, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Doug, we can debate whether UK labor is left or right, etc., and how Wikipedia still targets the traditional right, but let's discard all this and delve a bit deeper. To be honest, the only country whose political ideology at the center is relevant is the top boss: the USA. If the USA is left, the G7 is left; if the USA is right, then the boss is always "right." The same goes for NATO's ideology, as well as any other major organization in which the USA has had an unfortunate stake. Wikipedia also can never go completely against the top boss, no matter how much it bashes the USA's right wing. Think about it. regards, DangalOh (talk) 15:09, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
DangalOh, when was the last time the US was actually left-wing? Sincerely, Dilettante 15:31, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I forgot to mention that the majority of left-wingers often see them as centrists. If by "actual" you mean "extreme," then the "actual" left wing is anarchism (which is the same for every country), and the "actual" right wing is cultural fascism (which depends a lot on a culture's tendency toward fascism and varies for each culture and country). On the other hand, some forms of left-wing ideologies are much more prone to dictatorship; for example, various communist regimes. Even the Nazi Party, officially known as the National Socialist German Workers' Party, labeled itself as a socialist party. However, despite some early socialist rhetoric aimed at attracting workers' support, the party fundamentally rejected core socialist principles and aligned more closely with fascism. So, "actual" doesn’t mean anything here. If you think the Democratic Party is not left-leaning/aligned (which was the word I originally used), then I don’t know what to say anymore. I can say a lot about that party, but that wouldn’t be appropriate for a Wikipedia talk page, and people will come asking for evidence when they are the ones who disqualified that evidence. So, yeah, "actual" doesn’t mean anything here. Anyway, it’s best for me to skedaddle out of here. DangalOh (talk) 15:54, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My claim wasn't that the Democratic Party is centrist. Since you're skedaddling, however, and didn't answer the question, I won't waste my time. Sincerely, Dilettante 16:06, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In case I was not clear: you asked, “When was the last time?” and I answered that it’s right now and how “actual” doesn’t mean anything here. I also said that if you fail to see this, then what’s the point? By asking such a question, you showcased your firm belief that the current government is not left-aligned. Centrist was my assumption. I don't know what you consider it to be. Good day! DangalOh (talk) 16:18, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
you showcased your firm belief that the current government is not left-aligned. I don't; strike this. Sincerely, Dilettante 17:38, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NATO has an ideology? Ot mentioned in its article. Doug Weller talk 17:32, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest everyone here skedaddle for the time being and let this useless tangent be. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 16:40, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. Valereee (talk) 17:08, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry if I am outspoken, Valeree, but you just need fair observational power and the "right" intent, and you will discover that evidence is all over Wikipedia. From the sources depreciated or considered marginally reliable to the frequency with which the same editors target the same types of pages with the same POV, and the pages that have recently been attacked again, etc. Those with proper intent and good observational skills will definitely see through it. I am not going to fight for this lost cause; I have seen how this unfolds. I have presented my views, and now I will leave. DangalOh (talk) 14:16, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not good enough. We need wp:diffs that
  • the same editors target the same types of pages with the same POV and
  • Many senior editors (with support from admins) feel no hesitation in doubling or even tripling down on defaming right-leaning pages and sources when questioned about their intentions, fully aware that they contribute to Wikipedia’s declining reliability
and other vague insinuations like that, or stop making them. It's disruptive. Valereee (talk) 14:33, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Some good intent editors have already noticed this, and some are currently acting on it. I don’t feel the need to reveal the names of editors or admins I consider problematic and totally biased. I still intend to be on Wikipedia rather than make direct enemies because I truly believe that with the right approach, even enemies can become friends. We all are human after all. And as i said earlier, I have seen how it goes if you directly challenge authority. Vague or not, I am not fighting a case here to win. My job was to make one or two people aware, no matter the outcome. My job is done. Now I leave. Farewell, Valereee! i like this name for some reason. DangalOh (talk) 14:47, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From today's Medianama's coverage,

If Wikipedia collects news articles and presents them in a particular space, then how is it any different from Google, the judge asked.“Google does not add its own version to the index,” answered Kumar “It will not characterize what the statement is.” He also planned to show that some of the offending statements were not borne out by the source material.

The Judge needs to be informed that the correct procedure is for ANI to come and raise such issues on the article's talk page and convince the involved editors that there is a genuine problem. It is not the court's business to butt in and start making editorial judgements for us. And the court should also be made aware that ANI has not made use of the available grievance redressal mechanisms. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:45, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If they knew how Wikipedia works, this case would have been thrown out of court long ago. Ratnahastin (talk) 00:17, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From a commentator called Pratik Kanjilal (this is the first time I am hearing the name):

Not foregrounding the public standing of editors brings a kind of egalitarian rigour to Wikipedia that even academic publishing does not have. To expose editors by court order would disturb a delicate balance. And when editors play safe, powerful interests get away with murder.

-- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:32, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia agrees to share details with Delhi High Court about users who made edits to page on ANI; also interesting "Justice Prasad on Monday said that the Court will have to understand the architecture of Wikipedia before deciding an interim injunction application by ANI." ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:18, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly this is outrageous. People should not have to worry about being sued for adding information to an article and the WMF should not be aiding in India’s backsliding freedom of speech. Galobtter (talk) 16:12, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately the Foundation has terribly failed the volunteer editors. The case could have been dismissed as useless if the Foundation had consulted a better councel who knew how the Wikipedia works - and how ANI's suing Wikipedia was technically/logically/practically wrong. Hugely outrageous. Regards, Aafi (talk) 16:56, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I'm not sure that's true at all, but then my knowledge of the Indian legal system is fairly limited. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:00, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with this - the judge doesn't understand or care about how editing here works and is totally ignoring that this is from other sources. This is purely an intimidation tactic from ANI, trying to silence critics they can because they know that the news sources we're citing can't be silenced. Despicable behavior from them and I'm profoundly disappointed in the judges involved for allowing blatant lawfare like this to continue. Ravensfire (talk) 17:21, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm more disappointed in WMF. This is outrageous behavior on their part. They should not cooperate with India's authorities. --RockstoneSend me a message! 22:47, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Participating in the court proceedings itself meant that Wikipedia was going to submit to their outrageous demands. Should have never bothered, honestly. Ratnahastin (talk) 17:30, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Refusing to participate in the proceedings would have left the Foundation in contempt of court, which would probably lead to a worse outcome for the Foundation and all editors in India, than would trying to fight the charges in court by legal means. Donald Albury 18:29, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll disagree in part with your comment - people should not have to worry about being sued for adding information in good faith that is backed by reputable reliable sources. These edits were absolutely made in good faith and there are highly reputable sources making the acusations. ANI isn't going after them though, but going after what appears to be an easier target. WP is in an unpleasant situation where they can't win right now. Ravensfire (talk) 17:09, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd love to see WP countersue ANI for defamation and drag them through discovery hell for the mis-statements, deceptions and lies they'd made in this process. Turnabout is fair play, right? Ravensfire (talk) 17:10, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, whatever, could be done but it is not easy to come back from the repercussions of agreeing to share user-data. Regards, Aafi (talk) 17:36, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not surprising, per this (PDF warning) — The three editors(Defendants 2,3 & 4 ) in question are also defendants in the lawsuit, Defendant 1 (WMF)'s senior counsel submitted that they no connection to the three other defendants, therefore court ordered disclosure of their subscriber details to issue summons/notices to them. Ratnahastin (talk) 17:23, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are perhaps mistaken. The three names three are of advocates - not of users. Regards, Aafi (talk) 17:32, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not at all, check the page 2, 10. The learned counsel for the plaintiff submits that defendant nos.2 to 4 are claimed to be the ‘Administrators’ of defendant no.1. sounds familiar? Ratnahastin (talk) 17:36, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
my bad - I missed the point previously. This is outrageous. Regards, Aafi (talk) 17:38, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am interested to see the initial filing by ANI. Where or how can I see them? – robertsky (talk) 03:55, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't that's possible, but you can view orders issued in the lawsuit here [18][19]. Ratnahastin (talk) 04:11, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The names mentioned in the order all turn up as advocates when I did a google search, several for the same firm. Absent a self-declaration from an editor here, about all that Wikimedia can provide for a given user name would be the associated email address and a list of IP's used for certain edits. ANI could then ask the court to force the relevant ISP's to take the IP information and convert it into subscriber information. And then it gets interesting - let's say I'm very determined for my security, I use a throwaway email from a provider that doesn't log anything, and I use a public wifi signal from a nearby McDonalds. It could be extremely difficult for ANI to determine anything past that if I really was good about isolating what I used to edit vs anything else. (That's not an approach that I follow, I'm not worried about something like this happening to me as I don't make edits that would trigger legal liability for me in my home country, and if a court in India tried to get me to do anything, it would be a good laugh.) Ravensfire (talk) 19:14, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • By agreeing to identify editors of the page, no matter that it's under cover, the WMF has caved in shamefully. They have done a massive disservice to our readers and endangered editors who happen to work on any article someone litigious disapproves of. There is no excuse. Yngvadottir (talk) 02:12, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This is very true. If editors are self-censoring their edits it would be very bad for their project. American and European editors have better protection, but many other countries have "less than dependable" courts where if you go against the "big guys" you can automatically lose no matter how good your arguments were. I honestly didn't understand why WMF caves in - is it because Indian traffic and revenue is very good? ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 03:12, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is depressing. It would have been better to just be blocked here than to do this. We all know what happens to those editors now; they are cooked; ANI or the government's other minions will go after them. Such an awful thing to do to comply with this order in Mudiji's India, where the press freedom index stoops at an all-time low, where convicted rapists share stage with the ruling party and are garlanded, opposition sits in jail denied bail in corruption case while the money trail leads to that of the incumbent government, Wangchuk is detained for peaceful protest while a murderer and rapist is yet again granted bail before elections, and this is barely just scratching the surface. Definitely not Nehru's India anymore. I have nothing more to say. My condolences to those 3 editors. Lunar-akaunto／talk 10:04, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You assume that the three editors in question are from India. But how would you or ANI know where the editors are from? What if the three editors in question are from the United States or Europe? What can ANI or the Indian court possibly do to them? Nakonana (talk) 21:26, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They can still be sued and can take part or ignore the proceedings as they wish. If the Indian courts award damages against them, ANI can seek to enforce that in the defendant's home country. "Under U.S. law, an individual seeking to enforce a foreign judgment, decree or order in this country must file suit before a competent court. The court will determine whether to recognize and enforce the foreign judgment." [20]. Similar arrangements apply in most other countries. Nthep (talk) 21:37, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nthep, while that's generally correct, there's specific legislation pertaining to foreign defamation judgments. [21] Basically, US courts may not enforce foreign defamation judgments unless the foreign judgment would have also passed muster under US First Amendment jurisprudence. So, the chance of a US court enforcing such a judgment from India is quite remote. Seraphimblade Talk to me 21:55, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But how much would that person have to pay in legal costs, time, and stress, in order to obtain that dismissal in federal court? I'm confident the WMF won't be footing the bill. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 00:17, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The act provides that if the foreign party loses, they pay attorney's fees for the person they're suing. So, they thought of that too. It was passed in response to "libel tourism", where people would sue US citizens or entities in some other jurisdiction with much looser libel/defamation laws, and then try to bring that judgment to the US. So, they still can try—but if they lose, they're paying both sides' attorneys, so they better be very sure they've really got a winner before they go forward with it. Seraphimblade Talk to me 00:30, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd argue that it falls under Raise significant freedom of expression questions that affect the Project's ability to be a neutral source of information, such as true and verifiable statements that are censored under local law in the Legal Policies but it's up to the Foundation to make that determination so they should really prepare a statement to that effect it if looks like it might be required. Alpha3031 (t • c) 02:48, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If these three editors are in the US/EU or some Western countries like Canada or good Asian countries like Singapore or Japan they are lucky. But what happens if they are in India? Or Nepal? Or Egypt? Or some other country that have questionable court system? They are toast and WMF should be blamed for that. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 03:16, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
good Asian countries like Singapore or Japan The judiciary in Singapore is no doubt robust, but the laws that Singapore is derived and adapted from its British colonial days, aka from the colonial Indian set of laws. Yes, there have been changes to the laws here, but my vague recollection is that it is not too far off from India's. – robertsky (talk) 07:29, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Many people who have made edits in sensitive topics around the world (Belarus, Russia, Ukraine, China, Iran, etc.) believed they personal data was protected by U.S. law and the judicial system, but the Foundation misled them. In my opinion, the enwiki community should discuss a strike (blackout). Iluvatar (talk) 10:43, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Betrayal by WMF? Shocker. Jimbo needs to drop his big stick on the table and impose his will from above to save this encyclopedia or let it become a tool of propagandist, government agents and others with less than pure motives(more than it already has become) because the good people will be risking imprisonment and worse. Europe has already seen laws constraining free speech and most of the worlds population lives in places openly hostile to full freedoms of speech and expression. Slywriter (talk) 15:31, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you read Jimbo's statement above—well, I wouldn't hold your breath for him to do that. Seraphimblade Talk to me 15:55, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Jimbo is just talking emptily about the empty article. The removed article is not the main concern - the main real concern is how WMF agreed to hand out PII of its editors. Articles can be restored, three editors that are caught with Indian justice system is more dangerous. The fact that Jimbo and WMF failed to recognize the danger for three editors showed how out of touch they are. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 03:13, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WMF agreed to disclose user data to Indian court

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Based on this news article: https://www.barandbench.com/news/wikipedia-user-details-delhi-high-court-ani

Wikipedia told the Delhi High Court on Monday that it is willing to disclose to the Court in a sealed cover the basic subscriber information (BSI) details about users who wrote/ edited the page about news agency ANI [Wikimedia Foundation Inc v. ANI Media Private Limited & Ors. - taken verbatim from the article. While the information wouldn't be given in public domain, ANI would get "some" information on the editors themselves.

Can someone explain to me what kind of data will be shared? As I pointed out in the talk page, I am disappointed at WMF for choosing to disclose user data to the Indian court where they can be subject to punishments or other legal problems. Wikipedia forbids VPN in their quest to prevent vandals, while at the same time failing to protect the privacy of its editors. Can someone in the WMF provide more details on this case? Should other editors be worried about their safety? ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 15:37, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also discussed in related thread above. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:16, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Safety of Wikipedia editors

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Wikipedia has consented to provide the Indian Court with the basic subscriber information (BSI) of users who created or modified the page regarding the news agency ANI in a sealed cover. This might imply that Wikipedia will probably reveal the IP addresses of the editors who contributed to this article.

To be honest, Wikipedia's failure to secure the identities of its editors disappoints me. In addition to refusing to safeguard editors, Wikipedia prohibits access to VPNs that can do so.

What about the editors who are in India, even if the majority may not fall under the purview of Indian courts? I hope WMF has the answers to that query. The "tough things" will no longer be edited by editors if this doesn't happen.

Wikipedia agrees to share with Delhi HC information about users who edited ANI’s page

https://x.com/barandbench/status/1850870024468095357 DHICKYPEDIA (talk) 16:32, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to refusing to safeguard editors, Wikipedia prohibits access to VPNs that can do so. inappropriately conflates two separate actors. The Wikpedia community has prohibited VPN use (in most but not all cases). The Wikimedia Foundation is disclosing user data. * Pppery * it has begun... 16:34, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note that it is not VPNs, as such, that are prohibited. It is open proxies that may be blocked. For users subject to government interference with their ability to edit Wikipedia, there is a process for gaining access though secure proxies. Donald Albury 16:57, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with that is that we assume that WMF will safeguard our PII, which it turned out that they didn't. The process to be allowed to use VPN is for editors that have problems on where they live - but the situation is more complex than that right now. India is not one of the "closed countries" and yet the companies there are using the law to censor free speech. This problem is not unique in India. Freedom of speech isn't a guaranteed right on many countries, and many countries have questionable court system. Despite their problems the US and the EU still have the best justice system.
No one in India would think that they have to use VPN to edit about ANI, but now they wished they had one when they edited about ANI. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 03:09, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How is there in a budget of 9.3 mil no money for something as elementary as a liaison function that does something as simple as reacting here or wherever saying "We are in contact with the affected editors and they have agreed with our course of action. Also, while we can't share details we have a plan that ensures no editor is ever thrown under the bus." In other words, someone who ensures editors that WMF is working for them and that we can risk editing, no matter what topic and what country we are in. EVERY time the foundation intervenes in some way it's the same shitshow of inept or no communication. --SchallundRauch (talk) 02:12, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, it seems to be that again indeed. I certainly hoped they learned their lesson about that last time, but it seems they did not. We may need to force the issue again. I really hope not; that was a really awful and painful process for all involved, but it seems that's the only way we get anything out of the WMF besides corporatese say-nothing bullshit. Seraphimblade Talk to me 02:15, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WMF disclosing editor identities to a non-US court fundamentally changes the amount of risk involved in being a Wikipedian. I'd support strikes/blackouts/targeted breaking of things to ensure that WMF understands this. Tazerdadog (talk) 02:44, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is not 100% certain that any type of PII has been or will be released even under 'sealed cover'. The information in the article is very limited and We can file an affidavit (to show steps have been taken to serve notice) does not mean necessarily that the redacted information will be PII. They may be simply redacting how service was effected. Bar & Bench seems to think so however, and they probably have access to the full transcript. fiveby(zero) 02:49, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can support such actions as well. If we are truly a "global community" the community of editors should be responding harder than WP:FRAM simply because three of our fellow editors are in risk of facing Indian court of law, which is not known for being unbiased or valuing freedom of speech. And WMF way of handling this is typical of large companies that wanted to protect itself instead of handling it like community of editors. It's hard to act on good faith towards WMF after what they had done. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 06:20, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We are in contact with the affected editors and they have agreed with our course of action. By doing so publicly, if they did, they can't deny in the court that they have no contact with the three editors or not representing the editors by association. – robertsky (talk) 02:49, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wouldn't they need to contact the editors in question to be able to serve them in the first place, which they're promising to do? Alpha3031 (t • c) 02:55, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I know that ANI has requested that Wikipedia serve the editors, I don't know if that was agreed to or not. Even then, good luck to Wikipedia. They *might* have an email address, definitely some of the IP's used by the editors and would then require a subpoena of the ISP to get subscriber information. I think that generally it's up to the plaintiffs to do all of that legwork. And on a strongly security concious editor using public wifi or VPN to edit, good luck with that. Ravensfire (talk) 03:24, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikimedia Foundation Bulletin October Issue 2

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Here is a quick overview of highlights from the Wikimedia Foundation over the second half of October 2024. Please help translate.

Upcoming and current events and conversations
Talking: 2024 continues

WikiForHumanRights
WikiForHumanRights


Annual Goals Progress on Infrastructure
See also newsletters: Wikimedia Apps · Growth · Research · Web · Wikifunctions & Abstract Wikipedia · Tech News · Language and Internationalization · other newsletters on MediaWiki.org

  • Tech News: In issue 2024/42, read about the removal of the Structured Discussion extension (also known as Flow), work on making text searches easier, and more. In issue 2024/43, read about improvements to mobile app navigation, temporary accounts pilot details, the Content Discovery Experiments, and more updates.
  • MediaWiki: The latest monthly MediaWiki Product Insights newsletter is available and include updates on Wikimedia’s authentication system, research to simplify feature development in the MediaWiki platform, and more.
  • CampaignEvents extension: The CampaignEvents extension provides tools to create, manage, and promote collaborative activities on the wikis, such as edit-a-thons, meetups, and more. You can visit the Deployment page to learn how to get the extension on your wiki.
  • Research: The Research team and collaborators are launching new research on editors with extended rights.
  • New Content Translation feature: Translators using Content Translation on wikis with mobile support can now customize their article suggestions with 41 filtering options. This feature helps translators find relevant articles based on their interests for translation.
  • Wikifunctions: We are collecting feedback on the "About" widget that shows more info about the functions. Also, status updates from October 11 and October 17.
  • Temporary Accounts: Temporary accounts will begin rolling out on October 29 to production wikis with an aim to do a complete deployment by May 2025. You can see the deployment plan and timeline on the project page. As we rollout this change, it is likely that some tools (gadgets, user scripts, templates and bots) will be impacted by it. We have a developer FAQ to help developers with making necessary changes to their maintained tool(s). Please let us know on our talk page if you have any tool in mind that may need updating or if you need help with updating your maintained tools.
  • Knowledge is Human campaign: The Communications department has just launched a public awareness campaign (landing page) to showcase how real articles are edited and highlight Wikipedia as a source of information ahead of the 2024 “Big English” fundraising drive.


Annual Goals Progress on Equity
See also a list of all movement events: on Meta-Wiki


Annual Goals Progress on Safety & Integrity
See also blogs: Global Advocacy blog · Global Advocacy Newsletter · Policy blog


Board and Board committee updates
See Wikimedia Foundation Board noticeboard · Affiliations Committee Newsletter


Other Movement curated newsletters & news
See also: Diff blog · Goings-on · Planet Wikimedia · Signpost (en) · Kurier (de) · Actualités du Wiktionnaire (fr) · Regards sur l’actualité de la Wikimedia (fr) · Wikimag (fr) · other newsletters:

Subscribe or unsubscribe · Help translate

For information about the Bulletin and to read previous editions, see the project page on Meta-Wiki. Let askcac(_AT_)wikimedia.org know if you have any feedback or suggestions for improvement!


MediaWiki message delivery 23:52, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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